I read an interesting article last night written by a newspaper reporter in Oregon. He had interviewed an old friend of Hillary Clinton, Jean Houston, following Clinton’s campaign appearance in Eugene. Clinton had sought out Houston along with Mary Catherine Bateson for support and counsel during crises around Bill Clinton’s presidency, the failure of her own health care initiative in 1994 and her ongoing intense vilification by the media.
This especially caught my eye:
The biggest change in human history over the last 5,000 years, Houston said, “is the rise of the feminine . . . slowly, but surely, to full partnership with men over the whole domain of human affairs. This is shifting everything.” This was what Houston and Bateson tried to convey to Clinton in 1995 when they helped her understand why, quite apart from political strife, she was the object of so much loathing.
”It’s the fear of the ‘rising feminine,’ ” Houston said.
The article goes on:
“The current election is a look at archetypal structures,” said Houston, a handsome 71-year-old with a broad smile. Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) has “a shamanic personality, of course,” she said. Clinton is “the classical wise woman or priestess, if you will.” The presumptive Republican nominee, Arizona Sen. John McCain, she added, is “the warrior.”
On Clinton’s friendship with these women:
In her 2003 memoir, “Living History,” Clinton [wrote] ”As much as I loved my husband and my country, adjusting to being a full-time surrogate was difficult for me. Mary Catherine and Jean helped me better understand that the role of first lady is deeply symbolic and that I had better figure out how to make the best of it.”
…Clinton later enlisted Houston and Bateson to help craft her first book, “It Takes a Village,” which became a bestseller.
Woodward wrote that Houston tried to steer Clinton away from her “warrior mode” and “the need to have enemies who could symbolically be singled out to embody the opposition.”
”It’s a shame the warfare model is still there,” Houston said. “If she could have moved to the next level, she would be the next president.”
Houston says Clinton has difficulty “portraying her authentic self”:
“She is funny, hilarious, generous, warm, given to acts of kindness that are extraordinary,” Houston said. “She is a deep woman, not just a very bright woman. But she is part of a dying breed, an archaic sensibility.”
To be very clear, Houston’s approach to spirituality is not one that resonates with me. I do think, though, that she may be onto something when she describes what might be the archetypal significance of the people who have emerged as frontrunners in the 2008 campaign. I think she’s right about the fear of the “rising feminine,” though I think it might work as well to say that people are afraid of the success of feminism and of the powerful women who embody its successes.
Clinton’s friendship with Houston and Batesman ended when journalist Bob Woodward’s uncharitable and mean-spirited characterizations of Houston having guided Clinton through imaginary conversations with Eleanor Roosevelt, with whom Clinton identified very closely and whom she admired, resulted in new and improved rounds of Clinton-bashing. It’s not at all hard for me to imagine the value these imagined conversations might have had to Clinton; it’s also not hard for me to imagine how Woodward and others might have delighted in turning this into ”Wackygate”. There’s nothing wacky about the use of imagination, creativity, art or ritual. It’s unfortunate that Woodward’s and others’ sleazeball tactics worked and that Clinton severed her relationship with these women friends, who cared about her. That Clinton sought out woman healers during one of the darkest seasons of her life changes the way I think of her and imagine her in a way that is, for me, very positive. During this time of her friendship with these women, she gave her powerful and memorable speech in Beijing in which she spoke passionately about the problem of violence against women and girls throughout the world. She said, in part:
Women comprise more than half the world’s population. Women are 70% percent of the world’s poor, and two-thirds of those who are not taught to read and write.
Women are the primary caretakers for most of the world’s children and elderly. Yet much of the work we do is not valued – not by economists, not by historians, not by popular culture, not by government leaders.
At this very moment, as we sit here, women around the world are giving birth, raising children, cooking meals, washing clothes, cleaning houses, planting crops, working on assembly lines, running companies, and running countries.
Women also are dying from diseases that should have been prevented or treated; they are watching their children succumb to malnutrition caused by poverty and economic deprivation; they are being denied the right to go to school by their own fathers and brothers; they are being forced into prostitution, and they are being barred from the bank lending office and banned from the ballot box.
Those of us who have the opportunity to be here have the responsibility to speak for those who could not.
As an American, I want to speak up for women in my own country – women who are raising children on the minimum wage, women who can’t afford health care or child care, women whose lives are threatened by violence, including violence in their own homes.
I want to speak up for mothers who are fighting for good schools, safe neighborhoods, clean air and clean airwaves; for older women, some of them widows, who have raised their families and now find that their skills and life experiences are not valued in the workplace; for women who are working all night as nurses, hotel clerks, and fast food cooks so that they can be at home during the day with their kids; and for women everywhere who simply don’t have time to do everything they are called upon to do each day.
Speaking to you today, I speak for them, just as each of us speaks for women around the world who are denied the chance to go to school, or see a doctor, or own property, or have a say about the direction of their lives, simply because they are women. The truth is that most women around the world work both inside and outside the home, usually by necessity.
We need to understand that there is no formula for how women should lead their lives. That is why we must respect the choices that each woman makes for herself and her family. Every woman deserves the chance to realize her God-given potential.
We also must recognize that women will never gain full dignity until their human rights are respected and protected.
Our goals for this Conference, to strengthen families and societies by empowering women to take greater control over their own destinies, cannot be fully achieved unless all governments – here and around the world – accept their responsibility to protect and promote internationally recognized human rights.
The international community has long acknowledged – and recently affirmed at Vienna – that both women and men are entitled to a range of protections and personal freedoms, from the right of personal security to the right to determine freely the number and spacing of the children they bear.
No one should be forced to remain silent for fear of religious or political persecution, arrest, abuse or torture.
Tragically, women are most often the ones whose human rights are violated.
Even in the late 20th century, the rape of women continues to be used as an instrument of armed conflict. Women and children make up a large majority of the world’s refugees. When women are excluded from the political process, they become even more vulnerable to abuse.
I believe that, on the eve of a new millennium, it is time to break our silence. It is time for us to say here in Beijing, and the world to hear, that it is no longer acceptable to discuss women’s rights as separate from human rights.
These abuses have continued because, for too long, the history of women has been a history of silence. Even today, there are those who are trying to silence our words.
The voices of this conference and of the women at Huairou must be heard loud and clear: It is a violation of human rights when babies are denied food, or drowned, or suffocated, or their spines broken, simply because they are born girls.
It is a violation of human rights when women and girls are sold into the slavery of prostitution.
It is a violation of human rights when women are doused with gasoline, set on fire and burned to death because their marriage dowries are deemed too small.
It is a violation of human rights when individual women are raped in their own communities and when thousands of women are subjected to rape as a tactic or prize of war.
It is a violation of human rights when a leading cause of death worldwide among women ages 14 to 44 is the violence they are subjected to in their own homes.
It is a violation of human rights when young girls are brutalized by the painful and degrading practice of genital mutilation.
It is a violation of human rights when women are denied the right to plan their own families, and that includes being forced to have abortions or being sterilized against their will.
If there is one message that echoes forth from this conference, it is that human rights are women’s rights – and women’s rights are human rights. Let us not forget that among those rights are the right to speak freely – and the right to be heard.
Anyone who reads my blog regularly knows I have never supported Hillary Clinton’s candidacy (nor do I support Obama’s and certainly not McCain’s; I support only my own, and if not my own, then Cynthia McKinney’s), but I’m feeling Clinton very deeply these days. I think she has been made to be the focus of, and to bear up under, free-floating misogynist, sexist resentments and fears of decades and even centuries. The way she has been imagined and treated in this campaign does not bode well, not only for Clinton’s candidacy but for feminism, for the lives of girls and women everywhere.
Note: I’d like for this thread not to become about the Presidential campaign itself, with people stumping for their favorite and trashing their non-favorite. I’d rather we focus more on why the candidates have the appeal to the American public that they do or do not have.
Heart

Hi Heart,
I couldn’t agree more and it makes me deeply sad:
“I’m feeling Clinton very deeply these days. I think she has been made to be the focus of, and to bear up under, free-floating misogynist, sexist resentments and fears of decades and even centuries.”
I think that when some of us are young, especially today after years of societal improvement and personal shelter from male violence, we think we will somehow avoid the misogyny. We will avoid the fate of our mothers. Some father figure or brother or male friend will reach out to us and help us succeed. And indeed, that does sometimes happen. But far more often the senior men in an organization seek to see their hopes and dreams to be realized in younger men. That is whom they feel most comfortable with.
After this happens again and again, women feel the misogyny. We “know” it without having a single smoking gun that we can point to. It’s a perception won from repetitive, subtle experience.
Maybe that’s why so many women over 40 identify with Clinton, and so many women younger than that feel, well, rather fey about the whole thing.
I am hopeful, however, that the Clinton candidacy is not a precursor to a worsening public environment for women, but rather will stand as a milestone. That it will embolden women to run for office. That the blows she has borne will turn out to have been heavier and harder to name now than what we will are willing to face and name in the future. And I hope that the bravery and tenacity she has shown will not remain her property alone. I hope other women and girls will take from her, will be inspired, not disheartened by her example.
Everyone who has talked to her in person, has went to see her in person says she is very personable in person.
I think we are seeing people, women rebel against the media and the big power brokers. The media and the DNC is saying the primary is over, but voters are coming out in mass to vote for Clinton. There is a reason for this and I think it is because women, and people who identify with what is happening to Clinton are sick and tired of being told what to do, what to think, who to fucking vote for.
I thought this article on Salon spoke to the dis-ease I (and others) feel around (over)zealous Obama supporters.
link
Now that Edwards is endorsing Barack, it feels so much like a boys club again that it’s made me physically ill at times. I see these images on cable news of Obama walking around, surrounded by two dozen male advisers, and I shiver and literally end up yelling in rage and fear. What the fuck is changing with this election? More and more, seemingly nothing. My vote for Hillary aside, I’m firmly of the belief that the media’s treatment of her is immoral from a radical feminist perspective (not to mention a most basic humanist perspective) and also unethical from a journalistic perspective. Counting someone out because it’s easier than understanding why people still support her is biased, weak, and disgusting. I’m really ashamed and continually saddened by how this speaks of us all.
Hi readers:
Sorry to be posting so much today — I don’t mean to be a thread hog — but here’s the address of a website that tracks sexist media responses to Hillary Clinton and her campaign. Not only does the author(s) track them, she comments scathingly on them — nice. The last one was “# eighty-goddamn-nine.”
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/05/hillary-sexism-watch-part-eighty.html
Hey, twitch, don’t apologize, it’s great to read you, and thanks for the link.
I actually think seeing people as archtypes is very valuable. It helps you understand what people are seeing in political candidates, that has very little to do with who the candidates really are.
Hillary Clinton in person is very different from the person the media writes about. I was shocked at the difference, as I’ve seen her in several Senate hearings, and I have friends who know her personally. There actually is no reality at all out there. Her staff is fiercely loyal. She has had very loyal women friends for decades who are very devoted to her. Women in their 50s who well remember how evil men always were in the work world, know the real face of patriarchy. We know how men treated us like pigs in the work place, we know how they tried to stop us from getting the promotions and top jobs.
Younger women are completely unaware of the fact that men were forced to change. They were sued in courts, they were put in jail, they were fined billions of dollars, until they finally gave in to hire young women for the entry level jobs. Now women outnumber men at Harvard medical school, for example. Now women surgeons are common not rare. It was a huge battle that young women never participated in. They believe the charming men who support “equality” they are unaccustomed to knowing what force needs to be applied to men, and how you have to hold their collective feet to the fire 24 hours a day. But this is not known now.
There has been this huge breakthrough for women, and we as women simply have to carry forth, and have the courage to change the world.
I believe patriarchy tries to fool younger women into believing that things have really changed. The male mentorship model is very powerful, and women are still struggling to step up, support and go out there and work for other women.
Hillary Clinton is simply the mirror women hold up to themselves. Who ever said it was going to be easy for women to break the final glass ceiling in America? Whoever said it was going to be easy for Barak Obama?
I’m willing to lay odds on McCain’s victory in the end. You don’t really believe the big boys that control this system are going to let it go? This whole election is a stage show to pretend that blacks and white women have gained ground. It is largely theater to fool women. But you’ll see what happens in the end.
There is a huge media woman hatred machine out there. You can see male commentators struggling, being forced to, for the very first time (on camera no less), to take women deadly seriously as powerful capable people. They struggle with this, because public men still believe women are inferior. You can see this in how the male press deals with Clinton, who they simply don’t understand at all.
I believe men are clueless about the real inner power of women. I don’t think they understand feminism, I think they don’t understand real social change, and I think they are very wedded to war, domination and control 24-hours a day.
Obama and Clinton represent new types on the American scene. Hillary Clinton actually laughs often; it’s something men very rarely do as presidential candidates. When women laugh, men make fun of them. But I love her laugh, how she throws her head back… I love seeing this. How different from the gloom stares of men running for this office. This laugh shows a different side of inner power, a deep connection. The men remain dull faced and stone faced as always. They carry the baggage of patriarchy.
I think women often times are afraid of their own inner powerful voices; they get easily conned into doing “what others think will make you successful” when really success for women comes in a variety of ways.
I know untold dozens of people warned me that I wouldn’t be at the top of my career if I came out in conservative corporate America as a radical lesbian. Gays and lesbians are still in hiding in our company. Women were convinced that a powerful “dyke looking” woman would get nowhere. They were completely wrong. I saw no reason in the world to conform to that corporate woman straight make up plastered high heeled shoe look. Women at my company seem to think they have to dress this way, but I have never cared. I knew the key to success is always strong, uncompromising personal power let loose full bore.
***
The way people treat Clinton is terrible on the public stage. But I believe a lot of women are highly ambivilent about power itself. We don’t know it when it is coming to us.
I remember long ago, when I was doing more grass roots work, that occasionally people would do something really nice: like invite me and my partner over to dinner, or give me very good theater tickets. At the time, I was surprised by this, but later I came to understand its true meaning: it was simply payback. Men got this. It was pay back time, and they coughed up the payback. Women would take and take and take, and never once would it occur to them to pay back. It was very very weird.
This is a hard concept for women to get, because they are so stuck in the “give give give” stage of development. They fail to see the huge value of what they do. They think chocolate chip cookies come for free! Women are living in this false economy known as patriarchal family subsidy. Straight women have no idea what the real cost of things is … men pay… they love to do what I call fantasy businesses. Husbands indulge their wives this way. Hillary Clinton is not about fantasy, she is a real candidate who could easily win if women decided to get over their stuff. Easily.
For women to get payback to go out in that large world is a big deal. Obama has kind of a double bind. I think he may want to embody a feminist sort of man, but on the other hand, he is presured into looking like the successful patriarchal father, with the traditional family (a rejection of white people’s perceived bias against black families in general). White male archtypal feeling is that they will let minority men in the door, but only after they have made sure that the minority man will have his wife under control. Whether it is hetero role playing or reality, it’s hard to say.
Women are under the double bind of being forced to watch one of their own being trashed by the male media. Women want to be sympathetic to Clinton, they know she is a deeply emotional and sympathetic person. That is who she really is. Women want to support women emotionally, but when it comes to payback, they often will say kind things, but they won’t just write the check!
It is hard for women to seal the deal with each other. After this election is over, and if Hillary loses, you’ll hear feminists wailing at this, and how women have been set back. It’s just like my potential clients who are wailing about how they started so late with retirement planning. They know they need to invest more, they know they need to learn about this, they love Suze Orman blah blah blah. But when I ask them: “Did you DO what Suze told you to do? Did you open the account she told you to open? Did you set up a savings account of your very own?” Their answer is peculiar. “We love Suze, but we aren’t taking action at all. We just want to feel good about our money, but we don’t intend to change.” It’s weird weird behavior. Say you like something, say you admire something, but don’t ever DO something!!
Hillary Clinton the symbol is very different from the woman. We didn’t want a powerful woman to win really. She was never good enough for the radical feminists out there. We like the idea of Hillary, but it’s not the same thing as sealing the deal.
Even Obama struggles on and on with the decisive win. One state is up and one state is down. People are ambivilent about both candidates. We are breaking new ground, and yet still we don’t see the big picture. Woman hatred is rising because women themselves are rising. When women love themselves then they’ll feel at ease with payback. Until that time, they’ll give give give, and yet they still won’t get get get.
Supporting another woman who might actually get the top job is very threatening for women. Perhaps it makes other women feel less than. They prefer the quixotic third party candidates, rather than the big mainstream woman. Radical feminists like their purity, they like losing. Again, it’s not intentional, it’s subconscious. This is not a personal statement about women like Sonia Johnson (I think she was the first radical feminist to run for that office in the 80s). Sonia was great, Heart is great, but neither of them will ever win the prize. It’s about actually getting the job! If Hillary fails, then radical feminists will feel comforted somehow. It’s too threatening for a woman to run the show, because then you have to be adults.
When you’re an adult, you can’t “play at revolution” anymore.
Maybe African Americans feel this a bit too. There are a lot of African Americans still playing at the 60s out there, when we are in the 2000s now. The past is comforting. It’s hard to take full responsibility and be adult women in the world, and for good reason. Men treat us like idiots, they assume we’re dummies, and many women play at dummies all the time. They think they have to do this to get by.
Beware the traditional male “father figure” warrior. Women want to feel secure and protected by Daddy. And in the end in patriarchy big Daddy takes all. The archytype of big Daddy has even more power in war time. Why else would America get so goo goo and gah gah over Daddy Bush after 9/11. Time for the real men to take over all T.V. converage.
With Hillary and Barak, you get the male puppet masters confused. They are forced to “pretend” with all those black faces and women’s faces as political commentators. When fat women get on CNN like Candy Crowley, you know patriarchy is in high “feminist pretend” mode. I use the word fat as a descriptive term, not a demeaning one. I hate these silly women’s euphemisms for weight or appearance!
But if Big Daddy gets elected yet again, well the women will disappear. We may get the black tokens back for awhile who knows. Big Daddy will have those usual Condoleezza type blacks ready to go.
Big Daddy is waiting to lead America again, radical feminists like to be outsiders and perenial losers. Young women are in denial about real social change, and we’ll all end up back in the same old sandbox. Suze Orman will tell women to open savings accounts in their own name, and women will cheer her on Oprah, still doing nothing at all. But they have a positive attitude and that counts right?
Satsuma, your post oozes disdain for womankind from almost every sentence. It’s disturbing to read, especially on this blog.
Satsuma, some of us really do, intentionally, live outside of the mainstream, at least so far as having it as a goal to be successful by its lights. Suze Orman, Hillary Clinton, women who have, to some degree, succeeded in the mainstream, operate on a completely different plane. We can appreciate what they’ve accomplished, who they are, their advice, while at the same time rejecting it for ourselves, and why? Because we have rejected the values/goals of the mainstream. We don’t want them.
So I guess we can smile and support and encourage women who are succeeding in the mainstream or want to — and mean it — without wanting it for ourselves. I don’t want it. I never have. My life is testimony to that, and I am proud of my life.
Some women have worked very hard to break all of the glass ceilings and succeed in a world with rules created and enforced by men.
Others have kicked those particular values to the curb and have never looked back. I am one such woman.
What you view as my or others’ positive, do-nothing attitude, I would call my or others’ support for women, because they are my sisters even if what they want for themselves is not what I want for myself. Go Suze Orman! Go Hillary Clinton! Go Satsuma! But, you know, your way is just not my way. Your politics are not mine. I’m not after what you think I or others should be after. I can appreciate what you say, but I inhabit a whole different universe in terms of goals and values.
I like so much of what you say, Satsuma. I don’t like it when you blame women for not succeeding in conventional ways or or for rejecting conventional goals and values. For me, to succeed in the mainstream would be to compromise everything I am, all I believe, in other words, it would be, for me, to fail miserably.
I don’t know. To me, you read Mary Daly and Sonia Johnson and me and you smile and have a positive attitude and say that should count and then you turn your back on us. You don’t write the check, so to speak. I can appreciate you for who you are and all you have to offer, encourage you, smile, while at the same time refusing to go where you think women should go. I’ll never go there. Success in the mainstream is not for me because of what I know I’d have to do to have it. It’s revolution I’m after. And revolution is not about savings accounts or presidents who are Democrats or playing the game by the rules men have established, better than men can play it. We’ll never change the world meaningfully or radically that way.
“Success in the mainstream is not for me because of what I know I’d have to do to have it. It’s revolution I’m after.”–Heart
And this is why I love you so much, Heart, and feel that reading in the space you’ve made here for women gives me fleeting glances of what could be if women were truly honored in this world. Living revolution, a very peaceful and life-enhancing and -sustaining revolution, as you have done for decades, gives one moral authority that allows some people, like me, to gain sustenance from your presence and incites others to use you as a lightning rod (sadly, I’ve seen you savaged on other blogs) because the radical difference in the values you live by presents such a threat to what they feel is “important.”
I haven’t written here or elsewhere much at all about the presidential candidates, other than expressing my disgust at the raw sexism unleashed upon Senator Clinton that should give us all a heads-up about what many men really think about women. There IS something visceral and atavistic about the hatred, contempt, and violence directed at all women and at their minds and bodies that underlies the hate speech about Clinton. It is discouraging and frightening to me, but I have to remember, we all need to remember, that the hate speech is SUPPOSED to discourage us and frighten us so that we stay down where patriarchal men have put us and to yield to discouragement and fright means they win again. Symbolically, I think it is very important that Clinton has stayed in there fighting despite all of the pressure on her to go away. Her delegate wins won’t give her the nomination, but I love that she is cherishing them, thanking the people that made them possible, and staying visible. She is taking herself seriously, and that is terrifying to the extant power structure that’s had about six thousand or more years to accrete. I am hearing some people saying that, for the first time, they have grown to really like her. This is good for all of us.
Satsuma, you are always interesting, often impart really good information, honor civility and hospitality, and I am glad you are flourishing in your world on your terms, but you seem to have deep contempt for heterosexual women, which means for the vast majority of women in the world, and severely underestimate them. You apparently live in LA, a huge urban center, but even in poverty-stricken Appalachia, where I live, the women generally are responsible for keeping bills paid and greatly involved in any other “real life” maintenance of their households. Many are single mothers. None of us women in flyover country can afford to be sheltered from reality, whether straight or lesbian, and I have to wonder who these women are that you cite all the time? They don’t represent straight women, Satsuma, and it is insulting to assume that they do. Please stop making generalizations on this blog that put women down.
“Radical feminists like their purity, they like losing.” It is not human to like losing, and, on the contrary, I have seen feminists greatly cheered by each incremental advance for women. This blog and others honor women of achievement whether the MSM does or not. Why do you think this statement is true, and what proof do you have that it is?
Yeah, me, too.
I’ve learned a lot about women in this election cycle, things that I cerebrally knew but I didn’t connect with emotionally. It has been, in so many ways, a painful experience.
~
I had the pleasure of spending a few minutes with Hillary last week. Yes, she’s all that you have written – warm, funny, considerate.
~
Satsuma – I get where you’re coming from.
Ah, Level Best. Thanks! xxxooo
Welcome, vjp.
Thank you Heart, for this beautiful and thoughtful piece about Hillary. And for giving much needed air to the issues surrounding this election. What kind of democracy can we really have under such biased media control?, and what kind of feminism can leave that unchallenged?.
I am worried that the same knife turned on Hillary today, will be turned on to Obama tomorrow. It is the knife of big business and corporate interests. They have created,. a my issue out issues, your issue, scenario, and they will play it out for their own ends: a Republican win.
I thought twitche’s comment was wonderful, I also hope that Hillary’s bravery will be an inspiration to future generations.
Radical feminists like their purity, they like losing.
I agree that radical feminists can be too attached to ideological purity, as when, every so often, they turn on one of their own for some ideological departure or other, or when they get too controlling and micromanaging and won’t allow women space to try out different ideas and grow in their own ways and time.
But winning by the rules of the malestream can be losing in other ways, and losing by the rules of the malestream can, similarly, be winning. Then there’s the whole issue of winning and losing in the first place! Why is winning so important? Why is losing so disastrous? My experience is, on the other side of every loss, there are many wins to be realized, and on the other side of every win, there are things a woman will lose. This will be so so long as we inhabit a hierarchy- and dominance-worshipping culture. If I should become President of the United States, I’d lose so much! If becoming President of the United States never is more than an interesting idea for me, I still win!
I know you’ve heard this a million times as a radical feminist, Satsuma, and I’m betting at least on some level you agree with it: The ends never justify the means. The ends and the means are one and the same. Your (and my) sheroes all have written this, theorized it, philosophized it, expounded on it and often lived it, Mary Daly being a case in point. She lived by her own lights until she was forced out. She refused to compromise her core values. With six Ph.D’s under her belt, she was earning less money, after decades of teaching at Boston College, than most secretaries in big cities earn. She was refused tenure for at least a decade, probably two, despite her seminal, groundbreaking Beyond God the Father and Gyn/Ecology and all the other amazing books she wrote. Once they managed to force her out entirely, she was in danger of living out her life in poverty (as by far most radical feminists who have lived revolutionary lives have had to do or are having to do). She could have “achieved” “success”, certainly. For starters, she could have stopped insisting that when she taught Gyn/Ecology, it would be to women only. But that wouldn’t have been success or achievement for her.
Achieving power or success by the lights of patriarchy will require us to do things all along the way that we don’t really believe in doing, as radical feminists. And if we achieve in patriarchy, in whatever form, we will only be able to maintain what we’ve achieved by continuing to do things we don’t really believe in. We have to violate our deepest values to “achieve” and continue to violate them to keep what we have achieved. On the other hand, living by our deepest ethics and values is, in and of itself, its own different, revolutionary kind of power, with the means to it and the ends so intertwined they are indistinguishable. To reject patriarchy *is* to achieve. To reject male supremacy *is* success. The means in this and the ends in this, are again, one and the same. CAM makes the inverse statement, of course, that what we have to do to survive in the world is precisely what we need to stop doing in order to change it.
Well, I know you know all this stuff. My hunch is, you’ve cut a certain deal and you’re happy with it, despite knowing all of this stuff, and you’ve decided that knowing all the stuff, while enjoying the cutting of the deal, is the best radical feminists can do. I’ve decided something different — that cutting the deal hurts me and hurts women, heck, hurts everybody, hurts the planet. I might have to cut it, no quetion, and I’m not going to let anyone club me about the head and neck because I have to survive in the world just like everyone else, but I’m not going to urge anyone to follow my lead, or cut the deal I’ve had to cut. And if I find some way to abandon any of the deals I’ve had to cut without hurting myself too much, and without hurting others I care about too much, I am so there.
Heart
Level Best, I would never presume to speak for Satsuma, or any womyn, but I do share many of her views (at least of what I’ve read) and my re: my views of heterosexual wymmyn, I tend to look at them as collaborators. Lesbianism is a choice; the only correct choice.
I realise that it’s counterproductive to place blame for anything on wymmyn but it’s still my gut reaction to view heterosexual wymmyn as at least complicit in our destruction.
“The way she has been imagined and treated in this campaign does not bode well, not only for Clinton’s candidacy but for feminism, for the lives of girls and women everywhere.”
I’m not a Clintonite but, yes. And: it seems to me that although things have morphed since I was younger than I am now, they have not essentially changed … I sometimes wonder whether the weapons have just gotten sharper.
Hecate, it is also a woman’s choice about whether to wish and work for the betterment of the state of all women or only for the betterment of the state of those women who are exactly like herself. To work for all has the upside of eventual possible benefit to all, but it has the downside of the large scope of the task. To work for those only like herself has the upside of greater focus and empathy and passion, but it has the downside of possible benefit to only a few. I think it is right that Satsuma and you focus on the betterment of lesbians; I feel good about my choice to try to be helpful to as wide a range of women as I can.
A Hattie left this comment on my blog:
Maybe where we fall short is that we do not contemplate the mystery and wonder of women’s lives but think more in terms of our problems, living out our lives as we do in a patriarchal system that thwarts our search for our destiny.
and Level Best’s comment made me think about it.
I honestly can not claim a group. I just can’t. All I know is the group I am searching for, wanting to claim has women as the center. We, women, do need to live our lives. I try to live my life in celebrating my experiences. I think I am going to hold myself to that and try it more often. To talk about my life as a woman, my experiences with other people, regardless of who those people are, because whoever they are, they have entered and done something to/for my life as a woman.
If I were willing to throw around words like stupid, dumb, in a fog, I think I would have to assign it to people who limit their scope. Women do fall short for not celebrating the mystery of women’s life. Instead the stupid, dumb, and in a fog gravitate toward that same old pecking order that men have used for centuries. Well, don’t bother to find where I belong in the order, because I’m not playing. Take your [general] pecking order and move it up or down, shuffle it around, place value on it here and there, meantime, I will celebrate all the riches women (all women, ALL women) (and at times men) have given my female life. And my daughters will know the pleasure these experiences have brought and can bring.
“my gut reaction to view heterosexual wymmyn as at least complicit in our destruction.”
Hmmm, well, if we use that logic, then we are ALL COMPLICIT IN OUR DESTRUCTION,
as human beings.
Seriously, lol I was just thinking about this yesterday, and often do, because of the environmental degradation which is caused by, none other than us human beings and our consumption. Even if, lets say, we went back to a primitive state,
we could never reverse the damage. Our positive is always to another a negative, and vice versa, if you really think about it. That whole cause and effect cycle,
we are all guilty, complicit or otherwise. I mean, o.k. taking this example, everytime we go to the store, we are complicit in aiding in the destruction of somebody overseas,
doesn’t matter if you don’t shop at Walmart, hell almost everything somehow is linked to something that is based on horrid wage or non-wage slavery or on military build-up or just a whole arrange of things,
so What is to be Done, as Lenin would say?
Destroy us all, because something we do benefits the system that oppresses?
That experiment failed, and so would an experiment where all women were lesbian, or a world where
all boy children were killed [and I'd fight that to the hilt--its just AS evil, as misogyny]
I can assure you that world would for one, not rid of patriarchy or abuse, it would just be transferred,
and two, it would be not only destructive, but genocidal.
Misandry and hetero hate is NOT the solution, the solution I would think,
is dealing with power dynamics and helping humanity get to a place where power wasn’t the drive of human relationships. Simply speaking that is…
where power is not taken, meaning we are just like powerless amebas, no, not in that extreme but where we have a respect for power in others, for differences, and understanding how those differences not only create balance,
but survival for the species, human species.
MEN aren’t the enemy, Patriarchy is. The whole mindset of hetero women are complicit,
comes across more like the “Man Question Final Solution” type of mentality and I don’ t see with all honesty,
how thats any different than Women Question Final Solution or the women are inferior mentality, etc.
Not saying that women don’t contribute to the patriarchy and institutions, because they do,
but the reverse extreme would just be patriarchy with a female bent.
“I honestly can not claim a group. I just can’t. All I know is the group I am searching for, wanting to claim has women as the center. We, women, do need to live our lives. I try to live my life in celebrating my experiences. I think I am going to hold myself to that and try it more often. To talk about my life as a woman, my experiences with other people, regardless of who those people are, because whoever they are, they have entered and done something to/for my life as a woman. . . .I will celebrate all the riches women (all women, ALL women) (and at times men) have given my female life. And my daughters will know the pleasure these experiences have brought and can bring.”–ekittyglendower
Oh. my. gosh. If I could write like ekittyglendower, I would be one happy woman. That is such a beautiful statement of inclusiveness and the power of women that it gives me a shadow sense of the awe and near transport, the holiness, I have felt from time to time in being with and listening to women of rich personal lives and integrity. Even although we own (what is it?, only 5%?) so little of the world’s “wealth,” women are so rich and enriching. Your blog reflects this richness, ekittyglendower, as does Heart’s.
Being a much later baby boomer, I had the pleasure of watching the people ahead of me do these good things and bad things.
I just don’t put much stock in sitting on the sidelines or moving out to the country. I have set higher standards for myself and stick to them, and I never let heteronormativity determine what is essential for my life.
We had a lot of 60s radicals but I saw something different in the long term. Even Mary Daly, whom I adore, mainly because she was a purist and always a radical lesbian had the peculiar fate of teaching at what was once a men’s college, and then later when the college went to co-gender, she remained there. It was run by the catholic church. I’ve never worked for an institution that outlawed women in its priesthood. So this was an odd thing about her.
When Daly was fired the first time around in 1968, men marched on the campus in outrage. She got rehired because all the young men thought academic freedom was worth defending back then. But in retrospect, this was more about the times. Everyone was marching back then, it was the thing college kids did back then.
There are a lot of women who don’t want to run for office, or vote for other women who are running for these positions, but then again, they still seem to think its ok for men to be their proxies out in the world.
It’s odd. I always wondered what women would do once they had a truly viable candidate for the presidency, and it is interesting to see African American men and women, and what their voting statistics are vs. women and Clinton. Something like 92% of African Americans are voting for Obama. I don’t see this kind of commitment in women, so obviously, women who have stayed out of the public sphere a lot of the time, have this odd attitude toward what public life is.
Public life is there for people who want to show up for it. If women wanted to have their own soverign nation, they’d have it by now. They have chosen not to want it all that much, or at least I haven’t seen and books, articles or blogs devoted to this. There may be some out there, but I haven’t seen them.
I do know that women running for office have a very different attitude toward government, just as self-made business women are very different from their male counterparts. It is insulting to say that just because you have a job that you do it in the same way men do it. Nothing could be further from the case in how I’ve always done my work.
Mary Daly didn’t sell out because she worked for Jesuits. Heck, catholic priests and nuns helped fund her education. When push came to shove, a catholic bishop gave Mary Daly money to continue her European education. She went out and did all of this on her own and got help along the way.
To me the lesbian path is about the self-made woman. It is not about living with men, cooking their meals or educating their boy children. It is a life devoted to the betterment of women out in the world, and about the betterment of lesbian self. Not the selfless portrait of women, but the women who don’t give give give and get nothing in return. Women have been doing this forever, it was gotten them nowhere.
Women are struggling at age 52 to get back on their feet after living for decades under male subsidy. They have depended on the marriage system for support.
If we have a presidency, we have people who will want this job. We can settle for all the ways men treat women to get this office — think YouTube capturing Obama calling a serious reporter “Sweetie.” In the past, they got away with this because there were no cameras to record it. That’s how he talks to women all the time. You can bet that Hillary Clinton would never treat another woman reporter like that ever. She might get into fights with the press or avoid reporters, but this is not her habit. It’s a small issue, and yet it reveals why I have always thought all feminisms had their place in the world.
I regard heterosexual women as aiding and abetting in a direct material in home sort of way the enemy. Having a man in my home is just insane. Other more moderate feminists would say that heterosexual marriage is ok as long as the men are feminists. I’m glad there are a few women who have commented in support of some of my ideas, because to me, the heart of radical feminism is what happens in the home.
It is the home that is the territory that is invisible and so difficult to gain freedom in.
I think it is a polite fiction to believe that women can’t achieve just about anywhere. I believe the wedding of men to women has been an international disaster area for women for a very long time. One gets the feeling that women are so brainwashed into serving men, that they do strange things at age 65– suddenly, they discover they are lesbians.
There are many ways women can be their best selves. I believe in not settling for second or third best. If you want to spend an hour on something make it count, but don’t ever undervalue the work done. I’ve seen too many women who assumed the world was going to take care of them in old age, and they found out too late that this wasn’t going to be the case.
As much as I admire radical feminism, I certainly would not trust a group of people to ever be a source of financial support or medical help. I didn’t want straight women dictating my life in my old age.
There is a special group of radical lesbians who pop up now and then
thanks for the support for my ideas, I really love this. As tough as I am, I vowed that never again would I bow down to the heteosexual masses. I’d wasted too much of my youth in these supposed “coalitions,” and now, well I want lesbian nation to shine forth. There is a huge difference in lesbian mind, a lesbian mind that was never once engaged in “reproduction”… it was not engaged in most of the things women are preoccupied with. It was lesbian mind for its own sake in the world, and it was lesbian power for the other lesbians out there who understood this.
All systems controlled by the heterosexual status quo are horrifying to deal with… it’s a kind of propaganda that you can’t hid from, but it is an ideology, and largely one that goes on and on.
In the past, feminism was controlled by this force, but no longer. Now there are far more diverse voices out there. Unpleasant for a lot of straight women to listen to, but true to ourselves. We know that straight women have a great deal of trouble even speaking up powerfully in a large room. They remain compliant and quiet. They’ve done this for thousands of years. They’ve grown accustomed to these mysterious cages.
But even with that said, I am happy that this election came about, and that a lot of women got a chance to see women on the big stage of the presidential campaign. It’s a country that is there for all women, if they want it. Or they can stay out of the game completely, and complain on the sidelines of history.
I enjoy this public life, and have never really felt all that comfortable with the dreams that never become a concrete reality. There is the reality that lesbians are powerful in their own right. Some of us are bemused to watch straight women struggle with the same issues year after year after year. Even lesbian and gay culture changes dramatically with the times, but straight women still believe in the straight system, and that’s the only one they know. The fish swimming in water, that it thinks is the only reality out there.
It’s rare in herstory for straight women to even hear this point of view. They take their own control of the world for granted I guess, but many of us find this very …. well exhausting… I think that is an adequate world. We are simple people. We believe that all feminists need to get elected to things, otherwise only men will show up and suit up as they say.
Thanks vjp… I know a lot of women think about things I write about. They are the “silent majority”
That’s a joke
Would feminists support women in America? After I read this blog and was surprised at how much fuss was made over a rather ordinary woman running for office, it is a sad commentary. Or maybe it is the younger baby boomers with a different view of the world. Very different.
My women, I have approved your comments and appreciate all of your voices. Many comments I have spammed– their voices do not get to be heard on my blog! You are the chosen.
Having said all of that, I do not want to proceed any further down the het women v. lesbian women path. There’s a lot that isn’t being understood here on both sides, I think, and a lot that probably should be said that isn’t being said on both sides. This is an old, old discussion going back many years, in this incarnation, to the 60s. We have never been able to have the discussion without a lot of collateral damage done and I doubt we are going to have it here now. I feel everybody, women on both sides of the divide, and I’ve been personally hurt pretty bad in various new and improved editions of this argument by women on both sides. And in attempting to have the discussion, idiots across the (pretend)progressive blogosphere have made great hay while the sun shown over various facets of the issues raised. I’ve lost one good lesbian friend who I really valued because she said some really shitty things to me around this issue, and you know, I don’t deserve that, and I am not offering myself out for that kind of bullshit anymore. No matter how much I like someone. I’ve lost a number of good heterosexual woman friends over this issue because they got mad at me for tolerating too much of the kind of thing that caused me to end my connection with the lesbian friend I am talking about and for other reasons relating to this particular discussion.
So could we not do this, please. We are not going to solve it. The Second Wave didn’t solve it in the 60s and 70s, the Second Wave is not going to solve it now that we are in our 50s and 60s, and those new to the argument are not going to solve it either because it is too complicated, it is too painful, there are too many minefields and everybody ends up feeling *betrayed by women they hoped they could trust.* And that is so for not only lesbian feminists but heterosexual feminists. This discussion always results in enough betrayal to alienate a large number of women for a good long time.
So, you have all said a lot of good things. And, things have been said that have sure not been helpful at all to what I’m trying to accomplish on my blog.
So, I’d rather return to archetypes, the rise of the feminine, the unbelievably sexist treatment of Clinton that just flies across the radar, what that is all about, and so on.
Thank you.
xxoo
Heart
Well put Heart. But thanks for letting me say my piece, so there will be no illusion of silence out there.
Anyway,
“the unbelievably sexist treatment of Clinton that just flies across the radar, what that is all about, and so on.” Heart said…
I think a lot of the sexism directed against Hillary was “caught” and commented on. But the rest of it still is invisible. I see sexism all the time, and non-white people in white dominant societies see racism all the time.
But sometimes, the tide turns in a subtle way, and you realize that in a coded language sort of way, women speak up and turn the tables on sexist men. They use “reversal” and it’s an effective tactic.
There is sexism all over the place, but either people are “pretending” it’s not there, or they are afraid to confront it. I’m never quite sure what the case is with this.
Every time you speak up against sexism, you’ll find people sneaking up to you later to secretly agree with you, and dozens or hundreds of other people sit in silence and never confront it. It is the human hurd mentality to sit silently.
I know white men are always bitterly complaining about “political correctness.” I rarely hear women complain about it. I’m sure some do, but this is a huge white male grudge thing. So I believe that men think they are entitled to be as insulting as they want to be about everyone but themselves. Actually, men are incredibly cruel to each other, in ways that I rarely see in interactions between women.
It could be that slowly women are really rising. I found one intriguing part of the world where women were recorded by U.N. studies as having made the most dramatic progess of all the places in the world, at least in the last year or so.
Can you guess where this place is? Rwanda! After genocide or after something truly awful, somehow, women step up, and men give in. It has to be very very bad in order for this to happen. Lesbians got a lot of power when gay men were dropping dead. The balance of power had shifted in the lesbian and gay world. Some gay men even get feminism a lot more than the rest of the world; the old activist guard that managed to not die off.
The world is very uncomfortable with racism and will comment on it. What is weird is seeing the religious right try to co-opt black pastors by being against racism. Jerry Falwell’s early and very racist sermons have been erased from his record. After he died, those sermons were not to be found.
The blatant sexism in the religious right goes on and on, however.
Women will rise as much as they want to rise. Tomorrow women could completely control the world. For men, it would be all over. They could….
The bottom line with sexism and Clinton, is that men know they can get away with being sexist towards Clinton. They think most of the time they can get away with sexist comments period. Occasionally, Chris Mathews will get his snout snapped, but that’s rare.
Cleverly, Greta Van Susteren, who I actually like a lot, turned the tables on “Hannity and Colms.” Hannity didn’t know why calling a woman “sweetie” was a big deal. So Susteren and some other Fox news women just started calling Hannity “sweetie.” Colms started calling him “sweetie” too. It was the perfect counter-tactic, because he had to pretend that it didn’t bother him, but for once he was on the receiving end of a comment women have had to put up with for years. The rise of Hillary Clinton even made Obama apologize to the reporter he insulted. This has never happened in a presidential campaign before. So this is the rise of the power of women. It shifts men’s self-confidense, it undermines their habitual language.
It’s a clever counter-attack, and this is a response to the rise of women on T.V. news as well.
Some of my good friends assure me that women are actually really gaining, and that I’m too impatient for amazon axes to fly. I like to think that this might be true, but I don’t want to get my hopes up too high. I get very disappointed in the slow progress of things sometimes.
Satsuma, how many times do you have to say the same things about your disdain for straight women? We get it. You cannot be any clearer and I just wanted you to know that just because you think straight women aren’t very bright doesn’t mean you have to repeat yourself 8 billion times because, by golly, we can read and comprehend what you’ve written. Belittling other women will get you nowhere. You are like a broken record and so many of your generalizations about straight women are dead wrong–alarmingly so–and I cannot believe you are permitted to continually rant in this manner. You should take some of the energy that you reserve for hating on straight women and maybe focus on something else because, I. for one, am sick of reading your redundant posts (OMG, I used a word with three syllables–how is that possible if I’m married to a man and have children???)
PS. I happen to know a number of lesbians and guess what? The ones I know HAVE HAD CHILDREN–these are lesbian couples who have chosen to have children. They are kind and loving parents and are able to hold intelligent conversations. Who knew?
“it is the home that is the territory that is invisible and so difficult to gain freedom in.”
True, and imagine, if there were no women to raise and influence men/sons,
then the possibility of freedom in a male’s world/or home, I think would be impossible.
We can teach women–who teaches the men? Patriarchal men?
or do we just have two worlds divided, one side men, another side women?
I dedicate this post to my son, who has, yes, taught me to be a better person and yes,
a wiser feminist and humanist and yes, radical.
So, this is where I post the definitive statement, in my opinion, on all of this stuff:
Robin Morgan was married to a leftist, one of the founders of the Gay Liberation Front in the 70s. They had a son. They divorced in the 70s, and Morgan has lived as a lesbian ever since. Her life and work speak for themselves.
Sigh.
Heart
echo sally. i won’t defend my life’s legitimacy in this space when, despite the good, important, and well-intentioned words heart used, satsumsa’s are still blindingly mean and unfair.
“OMG, I used a word with three syllables–how is that possible if I’m married to a man and have children???)”
Sally, this had me laughing a lot. But if you’re looking at it from an SAT score point of view, you’d have to have the audacity to use four and five syllable words to be a real lesbian intellectual. Granted, three syllables are great to use around husbands and men. What works best with men is simple commands: sit, stay, down…. at least I once had a male dog who responded very well to those commands.
Yes, my critique of the straight world is indeed tiresome to straight women and men. Just read about a recent survey in California, only 51% of straight people think we are inferior as opposed to the truly awful 2000 survey that said 61% of straight people in California thought gays and lesbians inferior.
Imagine an opinion poll conducted in the gay and lesbian community. Imagine such a survey putting straight people on the public opinion list, and then publishing the results of this for all to read! Imagine being in this position, and yet you can barely stand the truth when we speak up, and you find it tiresome. Yes, calling people on their incredible nationwide biogtry is tiresome, if you are the group that gets to be “not commented on” in the polls or in daily life.
This is the kind of thing I deal with all the time, and I vowed after over 30 years of this, that I would never ever be silent again. Only the next generation of lesbians will be born with a better life out in the world. I have a lifetime of brutal anger at the straight world, over 30 years of insults, and I must admit, that anger will always be there. White people freaked out over Rev. Wright, just imagine how they’d freak out at lesbians preaching about the infamy of straight society on the good old YouTube! Maybe we lesbians need to be making these YouTubes and put that message out there!
I really do believe the primary oppression of women is in the home, and it is because they are living with the oppressors. No other group of people in the world has had to fight for its freedom inside the home, by dealing with the actual oppressor inside the home. The exception to this would be slavery or serfdom perhaps. Which, by the way, is what straight women were treated as for a huge part of human history. Look at what straight men do to straight women. It’s a lot worse than anything I ever say. You should be fighting your real enemies… rapists, boyfriends, date rapers, pedofiles…bosses who pay you less….
The home is the most difficult territory to monitor. As for the fiction that women can raise feminist sons, well, no this isn’t really happening. We can use case by case examples, but the main problem of how women are treated in homes with men in them still stands. I see no data that spousal abuse has diminished, or the rape of children in the home has diminished either. I see no huge group of lesbians buying billions of dollars of pornography online either, but you sure as heck see this with straight married men at their home computers. I rather suspect that these statistics are constant over time, and that the only taboo was not talking about it.
Straight people would rather lesbians not talk about the infamy and homophobia that is out there all the time. It’s just not done to defend yourself, and to point out the real contradiction of feminism — one for straight women, another kind of feminism for lesbians. Tiresome as this is for straight women, I believe most straight women have not been adequately confronted on their infamy. I can only use illustrations of daily life to make these points, and the real lived experience out there.
What was most remarkable to me about feminism, is when lesbians came together and created wonderful political and social groups. This was dynamic creativity.
As for Robin Morgan’s address on vanguards, I believe the word vanguard itself might have come out of Karl Marx’ idea that there would be a vanguard of the working class worldwide, who would lead the revolution. He assumed this would be working class men. This was his flawed theory, because he thought the very first country to become a worker’s utopia was Britain. But hey, he did a lot of his research in the reading room of the British library, and it is a wonderful inspiring place. Where else can you see the magna carta next to letters from the Beatles in a display case?
All of this talk of vanguards was a 60s leftist thing. Robin Morgan belonging to leftist groups before she became a feminist, I think, if I remember this right.
My idea was simply that lesbians were a special species imbued with incredible powers of the mind. I had a very high opinion of myself and my species in general; high standards, just as I found the incredible lesbian theorists and writers brilliant. Imagine such a small number of women producing so much wonderful thealogy, history, fiction and poetry. Imagine lesbians as the creators of modernism, which they were very much a part of at the time. “Modernism” — another four syllable word. I wasn’t interested in the tactics of the straight world to say we were inferior, because I made myself superior in my own eyes as a strategy to fight against virulent homophobia. Virulent (three syllable word)–(homophobia) five syllable word — perhaps that’s why it’s not on the radar screen of straight families… too many syllables
I actually don’t know the answer about “who teaches the men.” Tasha’s input above. Patriarchal men? It seems like this is what is happening all the time. All I know is I hear male preachers talking about wives submitting to husbands. This is on right wing radio all the time. Imagine white people preaching a message that all black people need to submit to white people? Would black people join those churches in droves? But women do. That is the problem of feminism. Just how would women learn feminism? We might frame this question in terms of who will teach men feminism, but when you still have women by the thousands listening to this male preacher nonsense, it means we still have a lot of work to do just with women.
Or maybe the issue is tribalism vs. individualism. People want to be a part of tribes, because it is so much easier to do this than be an individual. Hard to say really. And since when is describing the incredible social oppression straight women commit against lesbians “belittling.” Is it belittling to stand up for yourself? Maybe you want lesbians to learn their place, just as white people want blacks to shut up and be good. Kind of tough, but I assure you, until you’ve lived as a lesbian in a straight dominated world, you won’t really have much idea of what is going on our there. I on the other hand have lived in a straight family, and I’ve been surrounded by straight people up until I moved away and became self-supporting. So I know your world a lot better than you know mine.
I’m sure black people who have “passed” as whites have this same story.
Sometimes, even in my most overt lesbian self (how could any straight person EVER mistake me for a straight person), and still, I’ll go to an anitque store with my gay guy buddy. He’s shopping for a Venetian mirror, I’m rolling my eyes. We have good laughs over stuff like this. The proprietor of the store addresses me “well your husband seems to think….” This amuses me, because the owner of the store can’t see that my gay guy friend is the one doing all the comparing. But oh well.
A rambling Satsuma post that will no doubt irritate straight women. I must admit, I never much care anymore how much straight women or men complain about lesbian and gay existence. Just be happy that we don’t do national opinion polls judging straight people on THEIR marriages, and that we don’t publish our findings in the Los Angeles Times, NYT and Wall Street Journal! Then you’d really have to scream bloody murder at how badly lesbians and gays are treating straight women or men!
Maybe we’d be kind to you — only 48.2% of lesbians think straight women shouldn’t be allowed to have children, as opposed to 51.8% of lesbians who think straight motherhood is a joy and a liberating experience
Bet most of you have never even questioned the bias of public opinion polls that never judge straight existence
(Now be honest here).
Are we a vanguard? No, lesbians (the OUT variety, not the closeted lesbians) (2% of us are out), are living in a very different social reality. In my self inflated self satisfied Radclyffe Hall persona, I love my moral superiority. It’s kind of a joke that I play on the world. I love the 19th century lesbians the best! It’s a clever way of dealing with monumental homphobia!
I know it is a cherished belief that men can change, and that women married to men really believe this. Hope springs eternal. As long as we keep thinking this, I don’t believe much will change at all. When women really decide they want freedom, and they start leaving those woman hating churches and temples and ashrams and mosques… we’ll all be waiting for little Johnny to grow up and be a good feminist man.
It’s hard thankless work, but somebody has to do this I suppose. I think I’ll go and shop for a Venetian mirror now
How many syllables does Venetian have?
here i am, very very much older than all of you. which means in my generation–outside academe, outside “special” women-only spaces, i was/often am considered a radical feminist.
and yet, i am a heterosexual grandma in a very longterm marriage. hillary clinton has always been a puzzle to me and probably to herself also: how would she use her gifts and be acceptable to all? she could not. so, she supported the iraq war and did other things to increase her acceptability to the patriarchy that controls our economics and politics.
it is the future that concerns me. will angry, disappointed hillary supporters over 55 actually vote in the fall election? it would be important to get some of that energy involved in woman-centered causes– ending spouse abuse, making choices about our bodies a reality. i feel that this group of women acts more out of sadness over what they have missed in life than about concern for the lives of other women.
how do we engage them? it will only happen if we find a way to speak to one another across our differences as some commenters here attempt. more, please.
yours, naomi
This conversation is part of what I was talking about when I said that I’ve learned a lot about the women. Being black, female and gay means that I have a lot of different issues to deal with and I just have difficulty sometimes understanding why there is so much divisiveness.
I’ve often remarked that being black was harder than being female – and that comes from the daily barrage of racism that I’ve endured. But since this race, I’ve come around to the idea that institutional sexism is as bad as institutional racism. And that the longer the argument of which is worse stays with us, the more they (the non-minority, non-female) among us win.
When you are low woman on the totem poll (and being a three-fer certainly qualifies), I think the perspective of the struggle is different. So while I understand where satsumsa is coming from, I don’t share all of her views. To be perfectly honest, it’s just too much damn work.
And I thought running for office taught me a lot
Naomi, are you one of the 400. I think you are. Where have you been all this time, with your message of coming together?
http://hillbuzz.blogspot.com/2008/05/obama-hires-400-new-bloggers-to-sway.html
Well, lol, this is probably going to come out sounding Really ignorant, but what the hell… [for me because I SHOULD be keeping up with this upcoming election--I haven't, reasons why, too many to count]
but Anyway, lol, I think the campaign is not just shedding light on the blatant misogyny [that has always been a reality just nicely shielded under P.C.],
nor is it just shedding light on the rise of class differences in this nation,
or on the issue of the war.
I will say however that this campaign has shed light, on just how Divided this nation is, and not only that,
but how frustrated people are, and frustrated people, often vote for the candidate that they believe will be the vehicle of change.
Ah Ha though, thats the real mystery isn’t it? Will the outcome of this election bring about any true ‘change’ for masses of people who are finding themselves not only living check to check, or not having a solid foundation for the future,
but literally hanging on by a thread. Will the outcome bring change? And that, I believe is very much in the hearts of most and I think, what hurts the Hilary campaign is, yes, the elitist factor [old scandals, etc., Bill],
but now, before Obama supporters become all gleeful here, its not looking too good for him either on the elite scale, in fact worse, if you pay attention to what the worker’s unions and worker’s rights advocates are saying…
then yes, there is that issue of race, but I wouldn’t say race so much as the other factors that have been lumped in with the Obama campaign, that yes, people are paying attention to…[just the other day got an email from a political group on this very issue]…
NOT that its much different on that aspect of all other campaigns, past and present [remember Lieberman and the Jewish question?]
So, lol, for us like, folks out here in yonder yonder land, it doesn’t really seem to make That big of difference, one way or another,
~sad~ but true.
I think what IS interesting is that there isn’t a lot of attention paid to just what percentage of YOUNG people, and working class, have threw their lots in with Ron Paul. Yea, Ron Paul and whether you concur with his ideologies or not, it says volumes about what is smoldering under the surface in this nation,
and personally, I don’t think either of the candidates speak to those issues or people. Or maybe they do–
people just don’t believe them anymore, so what is the focus,
gender and race.
I mean Hilary promises us Health Care, Obama promises us transitional gov jobs [I swear its debtor prisons in the making],
and McCain, well, who the hell knows, LOL, I know, terrible, its terrible that so many, such as myself, have become so pessimistic and cynical towards American politics,
that many don’t even bother to vote anymore. Oddly too, its the NON_VOTERS they Should be paying attention too, because those NON_VOTERS have increased with each election–
question is Why?
And its not that people are just apathetic or don’t care, NO, I used to think that, but if you really get out there and listen to people, its often times the non-voters that have more of a REALISTIC handle on politics, and don’t buy into the whole media hype, they aren’t Gullible,
maybe because, we’ve HEARD ALL THE PROMISES BEFORE.
We’ve heard them, and yet, we’ve seen time and time again things just getting progressively worse for the working class,
and better for, you said it, the capital-owning class, generally speaking. Then there are the alternative parties–don’t need to elaborate there,
some are really good, though I sometimes question whether they actually benefit the mainstream, in vote losses. And then some alternative parties, can’t stop bickering and fighting for some centralist power long enough to have any real impact or influence.
Regardless though, how this election turns out, I can almost bet you,
for many of us, we will still, have futures that are insecure, jobs that are most Surely insecure as they are outsourced, or insourced to cheaper labor,
we will find jobs harder to get due to the increasing credit checks AND mode of lifestyle checks that leave so much room for all sorts of discrimation [and its happening NOW],
even IF there is insurance, its either not enough or barely covers enough or the cost of co-pay is So ludicrously high that you might as well bring some used toilet paper to the emergency room if you need care–its worth about that much.
Housing will still be unreachable for thousands and not only that, apartments will be so pricey due to the foreclosures [happening NOW, two bedrooms going for over a thousand, at ten dollars and hour, that is the ENTIRE MONTHLY INCOME, WITH CHILDREN, HEY, IF YOU FOLD THOSE CARDBOARD BOXES BACK UP, IF YOU CAN FIND THEM, YOU CAN BUILD SHANTY TOWNS]
OH, BUT WAIT,
they are building those new jails and more prisons, hmmmm,
and then, the whole ‘government transition jobs’, read that the other day in one of Obama’s campaign speeches–sounds good, sure,
sounds like FDR and back in the days of the depression, but we aren’t in a depression right?
OR ARE WE?
that dirty word, depression…maybe we aren’t in the like, full throttle of depression YET, but for many of us, you couldn’t tell, not really.
As more single parents find themselves living in rent by the hour motels hiding the fact they live there so CPS doesn’t come and snatch their kids to an already faltered foster care system [with case after case of abuse in foster care],
or students with student debt piled on so high [yea screw you Sallie Mae], that they find not only do they pay 40,000 for their loan, by the time ole Uncle Sam takes their Disaibility too, they’ve paid approx 200,000 + some for that 40,000 loan, and THATS CONSERVATIVE,
and not only that, but students coming out of our universities not only piled in so high with debt, postponing marriage/family and well, lol, their LIVES,
they find, that the jobs they worked to be qualified for,
are now in India, or Malaysia, and Target isn’t hiring that week.
Yep, you see, the focus on gender and race–doesn’t even Begin, to really touch, on what the Hell is wrong with this country,
and I haven’t even gotten to the issue of WAR yet. So, while many of us cyncical non-voters who, have just given up hope, don’t really pay much attention, to all the like, media coverage and details,
one thing we DO pay attention to, is the cultural shift and the Divide, between not only right and left, but the haves and have nots…with the evaporation of the middle class. [and they ARE EVAPORATING, SLOWLY BUT SURELY],
and, I guess, we look at, not so much this election–but where the outcome of This election, where it will lead, lets say, the next four years, after promises we’ve heard have not accomplished what they intended to do,
as corporations and transnationals and Big Power [law, money, etc] gain even MORE power and influence over Big GOVERNMENT; as we, Americans, lose even more privacy and yes, civil rights, in the process of Bigger Government,
what will be, the outlook of so many in the next four years? Thats what some of us pay attention too…maybe because deep down we are just pessimist as hell and know, while we see neighbor after neighbor losing homes, jobs, kids, health, etc.,
we know, that today, Obama and Hilary appear to be Radical Change for this country–
just imagine, what will be Radical, the next time, elections come around, and the divisions that will be extremely transparent then? Just imagine….
in addition–its important that I ADD THIS,
to this point, “by the time ole Uncle Sam takes their Disaibility too, they’ve paid approx 200,000 + some for that 40,000 loan, and THATS CONSERVATIVE,’
that should be both Disability AND SSI,
yes, they are taking SSI payments too…and here’s the gist of all that,
its not people who haven’t paid, its people who have paid, people with disabilities or illness or single parents, in our piss poor economics who can’ t LIVE on ten dollars and hour and pay out 500 a month in payments, the Feds/Loan industries tag on interest that, is just absolutely absurd and it compounds and compounds,
so there is NEVER getting out, unless you are fortunate enough to have family who can support you for ten years while you pay the loans back and have a job paying 60,000 K. Otherwise–forget it, you’re sort of screwed,
and its NOT so much the loans/interest/repayment, thats at the heart of this issue–its the Lack of jobs paying Real Wages, Living Wages so that those students who Do go to college, can not only Benefit society as a whole, via contributions/economics–but that they can pay back loans WITHOUT going into pauperville to do so,
and its not just student loans, its people living on CREDIT, to get by,
eventually, the bottom is going to Fall out, in a huge way. Worker’s don’t have the rights because they are withering away, unions–hilarious don’t even get me started,
and the corporatist creeping fascist international network of ’sweatshop labor’,
gov transitional jobs–sure that isn’t,
camps type of jobs set ups? never say never…with more jails, more homeless people being rounded up and sent to sleep in football fields [those street sweeps, yea],
more deliberate hiding of the poor and underclass–though the Poverty Industry, doing pretty good there, in many cases,
and more trade/job deals with hostile or, not so great nations–
JUST THE FACT, THAT OBAMA MENTIONS, GOV TRANSITION JOBS,
should raise some red flags, we are in some dangerous times indeed I’m afraid, some dangerous times indeed,
in Other words, its Not so much what the campaigns Say,
its what they Don’t Say–that people, should Really pay attention to. Because what they aren’t saying to us, is what Really matters.
Thought I’d ad,
I would vote for Hilary…because, I just don’t like the ‘agenda of the lobbying and other interests that are backing Obama’,
but in the newspaper today, there was article about the sexism that is being revealed [gee Big shocker eh],
I will say this, I would bet Money, seriously now,
that if Obama wins or McCain,
not only will things not get any better for the working class/average citizen, they’ll get worse,
but any Rights, that women have gained,
will roll back, even more so,
violence towards women will increase with Total impunity, not only that,
MARK MY WORDS, WOMEN’S SEXUALITY AND BEHAVIOR
WILL BE BY FAR, MORE SCRUTINIZED AND YES,
GOVERNMENT REGULATED,
and whats worse, is the numbers of Duped women, that will embrace and support this crap.
Mark my words…it will be this
Viva Machismo!
and this whole Guardians of Virtue b.s. [while more and more women fall through the cracks, more children wind up impoverished,
and more women's prisons become full].
And I’d be willing to bet, sexual freedom/abortion and birth control rights–will be even more, attacked and challenge and rights overthrown,
and yes, it will be, women shut up and get Back in the kitchen where you belong…
because by golly, Nationhood and Race, etc., are at the forefront–
Praise Jesus, blah blah blah [or praise Allah], either way…
and when the masses of women Realize, that they’ve been Done in for–
there will be I’m afraid so much polarization and disenfranchisment, [sic] it will just be,
too late.
yea spelled that wrong, whatever, my pessimism is showing again
Holy Cow!!!
I’ve been out of the rad loop for a bit, but, LOL,
I will be Right in the middle of, well, the place where,
the system is Already demonizing the voices,
but one thing, I’ve noticed–there is no Radical Feminist Voice or issues being presented,
I am contacting a few now on this,
if you haven’t heard,
look up, Recreate 68!
Last huge protest like that I was a minority voice in the far left on the issues of violence towards women, etc., and Sure enough,
the focus is on racism, imperialism–NADA, ON WOMEN,
HMMMM, THINK, BY GOLLY,
I SHALL HAVE TO GET TO WORK. ;0
but it appears, the Police State, is already at work, investing tax payer dollars, in shutting the voices of Dissent down,
so we shall see. here, let me post the link, and on the one section where there is campaigns on freeing certain individuals, notice none are women…hmmm,
pretty typical though,
here is info: http://www.recreate68.org/
Now, don’t you think there should be a Radical Feminist voice? I do,
it just sort of befuddles the mind, that so many of the issues [that are radical, not All that I'm in support of btw],
but with so many,
not One, not One, [except on the medicine page] even Mention–
patriarchy.
arrrrgh….
but since, I’m close by, maybe I’ll make a precense, maybe not…last time, I held a poster with the numbers of American women raped in our Armed Services in Iraq,
I got So sick of people asking me, ‘that happens’ and then the,
well, well you know blah blah Blah blah Blah
its draining, to say the least. Then of course too,
all the left men, with their so sincere gestures of being ‘concerned for women’ — but you see, I know their girlfriends and wives,
yech yech yech…double standards, its One thing to see it in mainstream,
its like, totally depressing to see it in the most Radical of politics, nethertheless,
the fear is there–police are in full force Already [though never mind the masses of homeless and poor women/families here, that will, I’m sure, be ’swept aside’ during the convention…jailed, forced out to nasty football fields, etc.,
and any one who dares Question government, will be put on the ‘watch them list’,
Will keep you Updated, I’m sure I’ll be getting bombarded with reports here soon.
Tasha
Gee, look at this,
http://www.recreate68.org/album1_dnc_003.htm
now, with all that talk of Occupation,
Why, isn’t there, any mention of MALE IMPERIALISM
including, in many of those anti-imperialist groups/nations, etc….
[like, lets scream against Imperialism but lets not say Anything about MALE IMPERIALISM OVER WOMEN, GIRLS, ETC.]
you know, by golly
I think we need a strong Radical Feminist Appearance at the Recreate 68,
to bring Attention, to the Male Imperialism of the world…
[though I know most of the leaders of these groups and they would do all in their power to
dismiss such protest by women in some back corner somewhere while they pay Cheap lip service…
but, hmmm,
I’m thinking…
would be nice, to see. like maybe 200 + women there, protesting against Male Imperialism,
and on behalf of millions of women/girls who are Yes, brutally Oppressed, raped, forced to marry at Ridiculous ages, who are beaten down by men/theocracy/Nationalism and anti-Imperialists INCLUDED,
THIS WOULD BE THE TIME…
I’m here, know where to reach me…
Tasha
I don’t agree with Tasha that women’s rights will be rolled back with Barack Obama as the Democratic nominee. I think at the end of this long, bloody battle, women will be no worse off in terms of their rights. In fact, many women and girls will be better off having seem a female candidate compete strongly for our government’s highest office. They will have seen a woman as frontrunner, which Clinton was when the race began. They will have seen a woman holding her own on stage debating male collegues. They will have seen sexism, sure. But they will have seen Clinton succeeding despite it, in much the way that Barack Obama is succeeding despite racism. This campaign has been an illustration to me, of what my father always told me, and both my parents showed me by their actions: As a black woman, I can be and do anything I want. I will have to work harder than most, unfortunately, but I can do anything.
I think the true sin of this campaign cycle cannot be blamed on the patriarchy. The fault rests solely on us. The sin of this campaign is the way that women have marginalized and dismissed each other–even in this thread. We have not handled our differences well, particularly our age, class and race differences. I have never seen such ugliness among supposedly progressive people as I have during this campaign, and I fear we will feel the repurcussions for years to come. On the small, unimportant side of things: cyber-friendships have been torn asunder and links deleted. On the big, more important side of things: REAL friendships and family relationships have been torn apart and too many women have been driven away from feminism. Allies have been lost. If the women’s movement dies a little under an Obama administration, I suspect it will be because of the ways we have all conducted ourselves over these past months. We’ve got some serious healing to do, or the “rising feminine” won’t be much of a threat at all.
Yeah, Tami, plenty plenty plenty of ugliness to go around, I agree with you there.
I don’t think the women’s movement will die a little or a lot under an Obama administration, because I think women in the movement will continue to work for the rights of girls and women no matter what administration we have. If you (rhetorical you) care about the rights of girls and women, you will work for them no matter what, you have to, it’s in your bones. I don’t expect, though, that Obama will be sensitized or sensitive to women’s issues at all. But then, what male president ever has been? None that I know of so far.
And if Clinton should be elected, she won’t be able to really work for women’s issues or do much that specifically benefits women, even if/though she is sensitized to those issues.
Which is why I never have been able to participate at all in mainstream party politics, or to support mainstream candidates. Can’t do it.
My garden calls to me instead.
As to fault resting on us, eh. As women we blame ourselves all the time for everything, most of us, and men are more than happy to let us and to pile on with more and more blame for everything under the sun and the media will blame women for everything and you name it. Yes, women have conducted themselves less than admirably and have had tunnel vision and been shortsighted too often, in all sorts of ways. Women are human. I believe we are all doing the best we can, and that’s all we can expect, of ourselves, of one another. Blaming ourselves for the “sins of the campaign cycle” isn’t going to help anything.
I sure haven’t delinked anybody over the presidential campaign! Whoa. See, I just can’t get into it at all, much less to the degree that I would delink someone.
The whole thing just makes me irritated and tired. Someone should call me when it’s all over, unless McCain wins, in which case I don’t want to know about it.
Heart,
I like to think that women will continue to work for women’s issues, and I know that most will.
But I have also heard progressive women–too many for comfort–talk about voting for McCain if Clinton doesn’t win. Now, voting for a progressive third-party candidate, like Cynthia McKinney, or you (smile), I totally understand. Voting for McCain makes no sense for anyone committed to equality for women. When I hear stuff like that from the mouth of a professed feminist, it always confirms that the speaker’s support of Clinton was more about identity politics than any real concern for women’s rights.
Despite what I think, though, the anger that these women feel is real, as is my anger over some of the actions of feminists during this campaign. There is a lot of anger out there if the blogosphere is any guide (and it may not be a great guide). I worry that this anger is not going to dissipate soon.
Yep, there has been delinking. And okay, I admit, I deleted one feminist link from my blog roll. Over time I began to feel that the community in question is not inclusive of, and indeed is hostile to, women of color. Though I visit the site still from time to time, I don’t feel a part of things; I have no specific relationship with the site owners; and I really don’t want to send the readers of my blog in that direction. So, there you go. I delinked.
I agree, women tend to blame ourselves, and get blamed, for much that is not our fault. But that does not mean that sometimes we really ARE to blame. Accepting blame for the way we as women treat women shouldn’t be an albatross. It can simply be the first step in doing better.
Yeah, Tami. I cannot begin to fathom voting for McCain. What the heck? It’s like vindictive: “Okay, since you didn’t put up my person, I’m voting for another Republican hawk and it will be ALL YOUR FAULT.” You’ve GOT to be kidding me!
And yeah, I hear you re delinking. I was thinking you meant delinking just because somebody voted for the other Democrat, whichever one it might be. I’m sure not against delinking people who clearly demonstrate they are not allies!
I think the blogosphere amplifies anger, if that makes any sense, or maybe the way the blogosphere works tends both to make anger more visible and to make angry people angrier. On the internet you can vent your spleen against someone who holds positions you don’t like in a way you cannot just generally speaking. I think, though, that the anger is out there, a lot of it, and I do think it could create some shadows for progressive people, anti-racists, feminists for a long time to come.
“I don’t agree with Tasha that women’s rights will be rolled back with Barack Obama as the Democratic nominee. I think at the end of this long, bloody battle, women will be no worse off in terms of their rights. In fact, many women and girls will be better off having seem a female candidate compete strongly for our government’s highest office. ‘
I’ll agree to Disagree, and strongly,
and I’ll tell you why…because of Backlash.
There will be Such a backlash coming from So many directions, Thats why. Sure, we’ve seen Hilary stand in the face of accusation, persecution, etc., but lets not forget WHY and WHO has contributed to that persecution and accusations.
Truth be blunt, people Fear Hilary generally speaking because they FEAR Female Power, Female Power meaning,
regardless of religion, theocratic autocrats, nationalism and male Polemic,
women aren’t Taking it lying down anymore, thats the message Hilary sent, and society is clearly showing, that society wants no part of that. Society Still is in this mindframe that woman is the ‘other’, the extension of ‘the MAN’ and that any deviance from that is unnatural.
Hilary, if she was elected, Would have/be a voice that Would have had the GUTS to stand against the cultural relativist Excuse of human rights abuses of women worldwide,
many Don’t like that and are threatened by it. Men, doesn’t matter What RACE they are, are very THREATENED BY THAT.
Anger, DAMN RIGHT there is anger, when more and more women [of all RACES] are the HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF DIRE POOR in this country [and worldwide],
what Should they be? Complacent?
NO, the Anger isn’t on the web, trust me on that one,
the Anger is in the thousands of homes and families out there who are seething when their Children are crying at night because their teeth hurt from rot and they can’t afford dentistry,
the Anger is the thousands of women out there who don’t Have the luxury of nice homes and those 401K plans and who are peeling their clothes off while nasty ole men [of all races] are saying ‘yea baby give it to me cunt’,
the Anger is the thousands of men and women rotting in jail cells and prisons for economic crimes and petty crimes, and they are serving far more time than those who commit murder or rape [or who can escape across the border knowing damn full well they'll never see a court in their life]
the Anger is the thousands of men and women and YOUTH who believed in the Lie of the AMERICAN DREAM and who invested years and time and money only to find they’ve been sold out to wage slaves who are in even Worse straits, and they are in so much debt that they’ll die in debt and poverty,
the Anger is the thousands of families who have just lost homes, who’ve been bankrupted, who have watched what measely little savings they have sucked bone dry while the Rich get Richer, and all the HARD WORK they’ve put in means Nothing,
the Anger is the thousands who are seeing their sons and daughters die in a vain war, for a country that not only Created that Tyrant Saddam over there, [Bathe Party, uh huh, read history people], same for Afghanistan [should have left RUSSIA ALONE], that CIA creation of that bastard Osama,
PLUS–the Anger over millions and billions of US aid sent to Israel [AND EGYPT--HOME OF HAMAS--YEA GREAT FRIENDS OF WOMEN THERE HUH, DUH DUH DUH],
TWO OF THE LARGEST RECIPIENTS OF FOREIGN AID THAT NEITHER ARE WOMAN FRIENDLY, UNLESS ONE IS STUPID ENOUGH TO BELIEVE HAVING GOVERNMENT TELL YOU COVER OR HAVE YOUR THROAT CUT OFF IS UH,
WOMEN’S LIBERATION, GIVE ME A BREAK…
the Anger over Americans being lied to, manipulated, cheated, robbed, exploited, as well as the REST OF THE UNDERDEVELOPED WORLD,
by a mass GLOBAL MONEY LYING IN BED WITH EACH OTHER DESPOTS AND TYRANTS AND CAPITALISTS,
DAMN RIGHT THERE IS ANGER….
and what you see on the WEB–is NOTHING in comparison to what you hear in conversations and in the streets. NOTHING.
As for people being regretful, for the anger, Doubt it, doubt it very much, if Anything, that anger is just going to continue to build until one day the dam bursts and all hell breaks loose.
Because bottom line, doesn’t matter Obama or Hilary, its still an exploitive as hell system that is based on sheer profit at the expense of millions,
home and elsewhere, and THAT won’t change, under this two party system, Period. All that might change is a few more moving into bottom rung or higher rung, and the cycle will continue until the bottom falls out,
and fall out it will. During that time, YES, women’s rights will roll back because it will be political necessity for it to occur, whether one wants to face it or not, it is the way of how politics works,
oh Sure there might be some progresses made for the upper class or upper middle class, the rest however,
invisible, literally. [and this is true among racial demographics too]
See there is women enjoying gardens, great, nothing wrong with that,
but lets not forget, there are Millions of women who don’t even have HOMES,
much less GArdens,
TRY TELLING THEM THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO THEIR ANGER…
AND THAT THEY ARE THE REASON FOR ALL THE DIVISIONS AND SO FORTH,
this, coming from a butt poor White girl.
arrrrrgh Recreate 68 has more and more meaning to me
EVERYDAY!
Tasha, don’t forget poor rural womyn, especially immigrants and farmworkers. They might have gardens, but often that’s about all they have.
http://www.rural-womens-day.org/
Also, don’t forget the poor and homeless with the p-patch gardens and women doing amazing things in tiny gardens on their porches or in windowboxes. Small steps towards self-sufficiency are always empowering. We can’t always or often or maybe ever immediately change the biggest, most pressing things, but we can plant a seed. If we organized and we all planted seeds together and had a plan, we’d make revolution. The less dependent we are on the powers that be, the more power we have. I think we have to come at this from every angle. Back in the 60s and 70s there was a lot of this pioneering, people planting productive gardens in tiny spaces, putting beehives on their roofs, etc. (The Integral Urban House, one of my favorite books ever). It’s exhilarating, figuring out how to become more and more independent.
Renee, good for your son (and you and partner) for not giving up on the gardening! You should see some of my gardens when I first started. Well, there was nothing to see! It’s definitely a learning curve. I started out growing bean and alfalfa sprouts in my cupboard and having a few potted plants.
Tasha,
There is plenty of reason for righteous anger over what is going on in this country. Amen to that. That is what we need. But that is not the kind of anger I am talking about. If this country was filled with righteous anger there is no way we would have just suffered through eight years of a Bush presidency. Hell, there is no way we would have suffered through a day of a Bush presidency. No, the anger I am seeing is woman against woman, not woman against sexism, racism, classism or capitalism.
Tami, what you say is true. I need to say that.
I also need to say, though it is hard for me to, that I, too, have had to face up to certain things because of this campaign, including especially the racist tunnel vision of way too many white feminists, including some feminist women who have been my good friends. I hate even writing this. It makes me sick. I have always forgiven these friends, given them the benefit of the doubt. I guess I’ve been in a kind of denial, focusing on their intentions or excusing them in various ways. For some reason I’ve always thought or believed they knew what I know about racism and feminism and the connections between the two. This presidential campaign has delivered me from these particular delusions. Again, I hate to write this, for so many reasons, another post for another day.
But I think what you are saying deserves to be acknowledged and validated. I see it too. I feel it too. Mostly, I hate it too, and don’t really have any idea how to go about challenging it in a way that doesn’t just deepent the anger both of us are seeing.
Heart
***True, and imagine, if there were no women to raise and influence men/sons***
I think that if there were no women to raise/influence men/sons that they would lack the personal force necessary to prevail over women/daughters. They would still try but be unable to succeed.
I would like to add, too, that the blindness is not all about race, though I may feel that one especially. I have heard some pretty demeaning things said about young feminists by older feminists, and vice versa. There is a class gap…a sexuality gap…
I just wanted to clarify, because it seemed from responses that my earilier post was read to be about race only.
Tami, I agree. Race was what came immediately came to mind for me but think there are certainly these other sources of division and anger. Of course there is the hideous misogyny against Clinton as well, but I see that as something men have been responsible for, not women. I don’t know whether women’s anger over it will remain, whether women will act on it, how it will play out as time passes. I hope women don’t just let it go, but I’m afraid too many women will.
Heart, Tami, et. al,
well, I guess, how to say this,
I guess my lens is a bit different on several issues in pertaining to race, class, culture, etc., because I’m looking at it from the underclass lens,
[which I've been both rural poor and inner city] so, I know about the racism racism [I'll clarify that later] living in the south, and then the more subtle racism living in a somewhat ‘liberal’ area, but also racism that is Contributed to not only because of class structure [that is Deliberate influence by the STRATIFICATIONS by BOTH ECONOMICS AND DARE I SAY IT, THE 'NEO-LIBERAL AGENDAS' OF SOME IN THE MULTI-DIVERSITY, ETC...I'll clarify that as well,
which, summing it up, on this I'd have to say, I concur with the communist explanation of the Why we have so much of the deeply embedded racism and class prejudice on ALL SIDES,
its not just whites, NOW, yes, White privilege in this nation or, Euro-Centric privilege which actually IS probably more of the accurate term, because there has Always been this Racism too against Eastern 'whites', the Slavs, Roma's, etc., not just here in the states but Major in Europe--so I prefer to use the Euro-Centric privilege because factually, yes its more accurate - when seeing racism NOT just directed towards Blacks but towards Latinos, Native American Indians, Jews [yes Jews], Asians, Arabs/Persians [believe it or not THere IS a difference],
but I also think you see the Euro-Centralism Racism when you start looking at racism within certain groups of people OR classes of people–
THAT SAID HOWEVER…in America because of slavery and blatant abuses and racism towards Blacks, white racism against blacks is Far more noticeable and I would say, yes worse, than all the other racisms combined, and NOT just whites,
I’ve seen this racism in Latinos [yes, believe it or not], Asians, etc., against Blacks, and it IS that whole assimilated into ‘white thinking’ culture influence, and its in South America too/and the Islands, not just here, [the slave trade went on in SA-Islands, etc., as well],
THAT SAID HOWEVER, in ADDITION, we not only have Racism to contend with today [taking it back to the elections/what is going on in the country], but we have issues with Culture,
AND NO BODY WANTS TO SAY IT…
I will. Because the Issue with Obama, and I’m going to stick my neck out here but oh well, it NEEDS to be said,
a lot of what we are seeing in attitudes is not just racism, its a real fear of Islam, Nation of Islam especially which YES, IS A PROPONENT OF RACISM, against both Jews and Whites.
and WOMEN, lets not forget Women…but see, nobody wants to come out and say it but lets be frank here, a LOT of people probably Would vote for Obama, but, the question of having someone in the White House that is linked in any way to the Nation of Islam [esp in whats going on in the world today, with the Jihadists [whom I can't stand o.k., and I don't think you can say you are for women's rights and support the agendas of the Jihadists, unless you are crazy, seriously...Forcing that kind of oppression, brutal, on women, sanctioned rape, force marrying of girls as young as nine, if you support that shit, and say you are women's rights -- you're NUTS.]
[and this hypocrisy towards Women is so noticeable within the far left revolutionary and liberal-progressive groups, and its one of the major reasons I left and became Independent Leftist--THOUGH IMPORTANT, I want to add, that Communist/Leftist women FROM Islamic NATIONS do not support and are very vocal about it, the Western liberal multi-cultural 'excuses' for the abuse of women, feminists I mean, I am friends with many of them, perishing literally in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc., and their rage,
is not just directed towards the Blatant and I mean, horrid misogyny [and rage against America for feeding into that power structure that pushes that crap] but their rage is against the American women who in their attempts to be ‘understanding’ and this twisted view that women LIKE that treatment — there is a lot of rage and its understandable…
so, a lot of what we are seeing in regards to for example, women marking out democratic party and putting non-affiliated is NOT just because of the blatant attacks on Hilary based NOT ON HER CAMPAIGN OR EVEN HER TIES TO THE ELITES/HISTORY, ETC., NO, BUT ON HER ‘GENDER’,
but its also based [though no one dare say it] on their contempt for the CULTURE that CONDONES THE ABUSES OF WOMEN…
I don’t think I need to clarify or expand on that, and everyone thinks its RACE, it ISN’T JUST ABOUT RACE,
Sure, thats a LOT of it, there are racist women, I’ve seen them, sure, all Over the blog…but there is also that real hesitation to support a candidate that people feel [and for good reason] is related to philosophies that condone [and would APPEASE] movements pushing for Sharia courts one day [in some communities to appease the demands of pluralism and don't think this isn't possible, its Already going on with the Madrassas schools],
or, Appeasing Foreign Policy which I think, is foremost on everyone’s minds, and you can Be against the WAR,
and NOT be in support of lying down for the Despots in Saudi and Iran [now, yes, I can also elaborate on the Traitorous bullshit via Free Trade among the Republicans too, with Oman, Saudi, etc., and I don't think it matters really which Party is in power--its really about money and money is what pulls the strings--not values, not rights, those are 'illusions' sold to the masses to keep them duped into believing they are free--the formally free, but thats another topic],
but anyway…WHAT I’M TRYING TO SAY, that to say its just RACISM AND SEXISM ONLY—
its simplifying issues that are FAR more intricate and complicated, because one, its not P.C. to talk about these things–but they Should be talked about,
and two, people are in denial. Honestly I don’t fear terrorism, from like over there—I fear, the destruction of Western Safeguards on Human Rights [what little there is] for Women especially with the increasing APPEASEMENT OF RELIGIOUS TOTALITARIANISM,
out of FEAR, and yes, the Globalized Neo-Liberal idea of Multi-Cultural Diversity…which to sum it up, means quite simply this,
to arrive at peaceful diversity of cultures, and I”m talking cultures So opposed to each other, women’s rights will be forced back, the TWO simply CANNOT AND WILL NOT because it won’t be tolerated,
live together in this false notion of tolerance, meaning,
you can’t have tolerance for INTOLERANCE and expect a free, democratic society where Women are concerned, women of All races…
and this is a lot of the heart of the matter [if you read the neo-con blogs plus left blogs and sift through], that no body wants to talk about, especially in regards to the Obama-Hilary campaign,
its just easier to say ‘oh they are racist’ or oh, they are sexist’,
now lets take this to Hilary now, same thing there but now, with Race and Class too, because while yes, Hilary is a woman, the focus on just the ’sexism’ leaves much to be desired in regards to why many Women don’t support her,
not just because of race, but because of ‘class’ and This I think, is a lot of the reason and pull towards Obama, [though among the far left underclass there has been talk about Obama's elitism too], but more so when it comes to Hilary,
and I think, this is where you see a lot of people of color enraged at the support of Hilary because its not just about white privilege [or Euro-Centric] but its MORE I think, about that whole stratification in this nation in regards to race and class…
Hilary represents white upper middle class/upper class society, and I’d even go as far as to include the feminist aspect of this…
which, does NOT speak for the masses of African women, Latina women, Asian women and YES–poor white women/and multi-racial women,
And Arab women, because lets not forget, Hilary was in support of Iraq war,
in other words, Hilary [if you are looking at it politically and not just in gender] is part of that whole elitist structure that not only condones the war in Iraq but benefits from it…economically speaking,
and thats where, there are some Serious dividing lines, not just between race, cultures, but class,
because, percentage wise, its Low income who are fighting on the lines in Iraq/Afghanistan, our military is pretty much, at least the Army/Marines, working class to low income working class–we don’t say war is population and labor pool control for nothing.
There is a WAR going on on many fronts, and narrowing it down to only racism and gender I think only serves to perpetuate the ‘illusion’ that so many hang onto, because,
its simply not P.C. to talk about all the other things, that we all know, are there…
among Women, I think a lot of Women would have supported Obama, if not for the ties to the Nation of Islam [because of what that all entails and could entail...and NO, its not just fundamentalisms, in fact that is just another 'lie' sold to not only Americans but Europeans and it is the reason we are seeing women in Europe being confronted with losing more rights, in Europe/including East right now, there is democracy grass roots movements, mostly women, that have covered all the women statutes to show, what exactly IS HAPPENING across Europe--though the media here has been silent on this, right and left media, the far leftists, don't give a shit what happens to women--sacrificing them as the means to an end, is nothing to them...why there IS more activism among women, Arab/Persian women included in these nations including those in the far left, and they are pretty much fighting it alone...in UK, for example, more laws and tolerance for Intolerance especially in regards to human right abuses towards Women, are increasing DAILY...
the Right wing, doesn't care either because its bottom line, ching ching green backs, seriously, what better way to force a world wide slave economic regime than to have everyone under a totalitarian type of system, be it religious or political,
we've seen this with the Right wing in bed with the most extreme of misogynists in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., Saudi, chauvinism supporting chauvinism in board rooms and in banks,
the Left is JUST as guilty, lets not forget, China's support for the shit going on in Sudan, which is YES, Muslim violence in an attempt to force All of Sudan into one big Islamic Republic...
That, was fueled and supported via $$ching ching, OIL...[back in the day ole Chevron],
and its not just the Islamic Totalitarians hell, its been this way with other Despotic and brutal regimes as well–in fact, if you Really want to find out just how screwed up politics is, just follow the money trail and find out just how many American Stocks/CEOS are invested in Iran, of all places,
go figure…so much for that b.s. cry of freedom huh?
Bottom line, the far left has an agenda [which believe me, you think slavery is bad today, LOL, boy if people ONLY knew],
and the far right has an agenda, and its interesting when you look at the globalization, the neo-liberal agenda, it looks So good, but when you peel the layers away and see just how many masses worldwide are slowly dying due to the globalization, its no Wonder why its so easy for the most totalitarian groups,
to hold influence over so many,
not just Political Islamists either, though right now they would be the major forces in regards to this and why the far left is in bed with them…[to their own demise sorry to say, idiots, seriously, they are I'm not kidding, complete idiots--Islam and communism don't mix--just ask the dead communists in Iraq, Iran, etc]., [I'm referring to the idiots here in America, in regards to the far left, and in Europe, which has been taking over by the neo-liberals],
this is the reason too that nationalism is on the rise, its a reactionary movement against what IS going on not due to Bush only–to neo-liberalism,
not that nationalism wasn’t there, but its been stirred and is growing, in leaps and bounds,
and we are seeing this in America too…
and what it basically sums up to is the fanaticism and extremism, on so many sides, as well as the middle man who is taking those extremes and playing them, not only against each other but in a way where, there is a segment that is making a Killing off of the process–
tell you what, want to really see just how corrupt it is, do a study on Dubai, and the Development going on there, its not just Right wing rich buying up those properties,
its a lot of your Left wing rich too [including those rich or in the pocket of the rich corrupt as hell socialists in Europe and as much as I loathe Stalin, I have to say, his predictions [and Lenin's] on the demise of Europe due to the bourgiouse [sic] filth, has So come to pass…it explains a lot why there is in the East at least, a surge of pro-Stalinism in many countries [though generations forget, you know Stalin was a state capitalist/fascist butcher, but he Did have an Equalizing effect on society],
anyway…getting off topic here, but these are just some of the serious issues that are smoldering beneath the surface, now how many American voters are actually Aware of the Depth and Extent of these issues, I have to question,
because so much is influenced by media which truly, is just a crock of b.s., seriously, doesn’t matter what side one is on, there is So much indoctrination and subtle influence, we really are, like sheep heading towards the slaughter,
but, you know, its in a big way, our own damn fault. We’ve for too damn long, have been complacent and just enjoying our ‘privilege’ not just as Whites, as a NATION, at the expense of so much of the world [and on this Obama is right],
as are the Black Nationalists, believe it or not I concur with a lot of what they are saying, its TRUTH, this nation alone, lets not forget South Africa, has done more damage to Africa, [South America too, but I'll focus on Africa for now], that its no wonder,
the Islamists have been able to step on in and take ADVANTAGE of that…once the Communists took advantage of it [they still do in areas],
[and by communists, just to clarify, I'm referring to the Stalinist kind, because true communism died, in Leninism, don't think it was Lenin's intent--I think however, he was strongly mistaken, on his whole vanguard b.s., but you have to understand the developments in Russia that lead up to that, history, etc., which most Don't including in the left but anyway--socialism is just as warped, due to the liberal bourgeous [sic] take over, never was, in either, the Workers taking over anything–
and I add this, because its interesting to see how the Workers ARE taking over production without all the political elitist bullshit in Argentina for example [if you haven't seen Take Back you should, which btw, the worker's movement in Argentina--
STARTED BY WOMEN, IN SEWING TEXTILES...
we NEED more of those movements worldwide, because THEY WORK,
they work because they aren't started and fueled by male polemics and vanguardism and hedonist liberalism, or theocratic loons,
sadly though these movements are small, but they are examples, models of what Can work, if people start digging and searching for truth outside of the political framework which is so corrupt anyway,
no matter What race, What religion, What ideology...because the masses may Think they are in control,
they are not, the only true control they have [women too in many ways] IS reactionary,
why the underground Is so powerful, and Why do you think, seriously, that there is the focus media that is, on the issues of Race and Gender?
Ever think about it?
Notice how quiet McCain [sic] is in all of this–
its real simple,
DIVIDE AND CONQUER.
but, then you see,
I’m looking at it, from the lens,
of the
underclass….
so like, what do I know, LOL.
ekittyglendower, please note. i had no idea what you were suggesting in your response to my earlier comment here.
once i figured it out, i was disappointed to discover that it was barely-concealed hate-labeling. “coming together” is what this old lady feminist keeps trying for rather than the closing-down of exchange which your response suggests. -naomi
Tasha, for what it’s worth, when I say “racism” I am always including these many considerations you mention and others, and the same when I say sexism, classism– it’s not possible to explore and analyze all of these many issues and intersections each time we comment, but understood, it is a lot more complicated than just race, or just sexism, or just classism, etc.
Though I agree with much of what you say there, I’d take issue, I think, with what you say so far as Obama’s connection with Islam in the minds of voters. It wouldn’t make sense to me to associate Islam in general with Jihadists, any more than it would make sense to me to associate Jim Wallis and Sojourners with Rousas Rushdoony or Gary North of dominionist/theocratic Christianity. When I read what you are saying, I’m thinking it’s like suggesting that people would be deterred from voting for Bush because he’s a Christian and some Christians are dominionists and would endorse/approve stoning people for being gay or sons for being rebellious. I think that honestly and in general, Americans are reasonably sophisticated about these distinctions because most of them identify as Christians or have at some point and they know how diverse Christianity is.
The other thing is, Obama very clearly has ties not to Islam but to the liberation theology of the black Christian church. We just had the whole Jeremiah Wright drama around that. I think people have and might have difficulties with those connections, but I think in general, that’s about straight up white American style racism.
I know that you do a lot of thinking and research around Islam’s oppression of women– so do I, and I have written tons about it. But I think it’s a waaaaaaaayyyyy stretch to suggest that there are many Americans who would reject Obama because of some theoretical ties he has to Islam and then take the second step and say those theoretical ties mean he might have some sort of ties to Jihadists. I read that kind of stuff from David Horowitz’s Front Page and the like, conservatives/neocons who are as rabidly anti-Islam as they accuse Islam of being rabidly anti-semitic, etc. Birds of a feather. I’m just saying, I think connecting Obama with Islamic Jihadists is spin, pure propaganda that Right Wing/Republican/conservative spin doctors don’t believe themselves, they’re just stoking the embers of a very useful fear, and I don’t for one minute think more than a tiny number of people actually buy it or are going to be influenced by it who weren’t already rabidly conservative/right-wing/Republican and therefore would never have voted for Obama ANYway. I don’t think women, especially, would, in large numbers, reject Obama because of ties they think he has with Islam. I think men might, conservatives/neocons/Republicans, and a few women who are along the lines of Phyllis Chesler, but again, they’d reject Obama in any event because they’re Republicans, hawks, conservatives, etc.
So, I disagree fairly strenuously with that part of your analysis up there.
You often say you are part of the underclass in a way that causes me to think you might think your insights and perspectives are not recognized as valid and important here, and they really are. I do value what you say and think it’s often right on the money. I think you’re very correct to say that class issues are central to the divisions we are seeing so far as the campaigns and that by far those issues have not been factored in often enough in political analyses of the campaign. I think you are right when you say that Hillary represents the elite, white, highly educated, wealthy, the landed aristocracy of the United States, to a certain segment of the populace, and that those who don’t relate to this particular demographic and/or don’t trust it also have trouble trusting Clinton or getting behind her.
Having said that, though, what do we make of Clinton’s huge win recently in Kentucky and the striking levels of support she has among poor and working class white people there, women especially? I watched that sea of celebrating faces, most, by far, women, or at least the cameras focused on them, and they were clearly poor, working class, the underclass, and yet they are all about Clinton as Madame President. It’s all very interesting, the way the class issues are playing out and I think it’s kind of hard to generalize there.
Hey, Naomi Dagen Bloom, I’m glad you aren’t one of the 400 bloggers! I haven’t heard any more about that– I wonder who they even are? Or *if* they are. Part of the collateral damage of this campaign, certainly, is the distrust among women, understandable, but hurtful. Thanks for your work to bring women together, I have a heart for that, too, so important.
Having said that, though, what do we make of Clinton’s huge win recently in Kentucky and the striking levels of support she has among poor and working class white people there, women especially?
Clinton has not won in Kentucky yet, but perhaps by tonight. It looks good. Maybe you are thinking of West Virginia. And maybe the confusion with West Virginia and Kentucky stems from the reasons she in fact won in West Virginia and probably will win big in Kentucky, that fact being that Clinton is associated with the southern white wing of the Democratic Party to the point of fault. Currently, the northern democrats who are just as elite as Clinton, more elitist are trying to dump on the Southern wing of the democratoc party and form a new party with the north and southwest. This has and will be Obama’s problem. If both him and Clinton are elitists he is the worse because he does thumb his nose at dem der hillbilly-rednecks and so does Kerry and Kennedy and Donna Brazile and Howard Dean. Real racists don’t care if you call them racists, but people who work hard, work everyday, day in and day out with a diversity of people, marry a diversity of people, get along with a diversity of people don’t take kindly with being called a racist. Just the other day Obama dismissed all the people in Kentucky saying they identify with Clinton more because Clinton is from Arkansas and Kentucky is closer to Arkansas. Not. Kentucky is actually physically closer to Illinois, Obama’s area. But that was Obama’s Freudian slip, Kentucky equals hillbillies-rednecks to him, Arkansas equals hillbillies-rednecks, Clinton, even though she is from the Midwest and now a senator of New York is a hillbilly and redneck to Obama and his crowd. Obama is the superior elitists. Hillary Clinton abandoned the Republican Party when she learned about their use of the Southern Strategy. People in certain states are sick of being portrayed as something they are not and Clinton does not look down on them and they appreciate that. Donna Brazile flat out told people that they can stay home, that they have the young vote, the professor vote and the African American votes so others are not needed. People don’t take kindly to being dismissed and ridiculed, even “dumb old stupid hillbillies and rednecks” or, as Obama supporter Rhandi Rhodes loudly stated (without censure), “white trash votes for Clinton.”
Anglachelg does very good analysis with the whole jettison of the southern democrats that the DNC is hell-bent on doing.
http://anglachelg.blogspot.com/2008/05/revolution-of-saints.html
You bring up good points Heart and on many I concur, you are right on the part of the neo-con assumptions, or, no, I wouldn’t say assumptions but their ‘exploitation of very real possible realities’ [I'll expand on this in a bit] of those connected to Islamist ’sympathies’ I guess is the better meaning of the word,
in this country and yes, in Europe,
but that still does not cover the entire ‘watch’ on the sympathies towards a very real, yes threat,
and I guess on this I would concur on Some, EMPHASIS ON SOME of the concerns Because of my experience Intimately with Islam, because I have read the Koran and the Sharia Code and I know, very well, what the practice of Taqiya [sic] is, I’ve seen it, firsthand, and believe me when I say,
IT IS, INDEED DANGEROUS, for Women especially.
This is not to say there isn’t modern Muslims or Muslims who are not opposed to the fundamentalisms, they are, however they ARE a minority, but the ones we Should be listening to,
are the men and women who know very well, just what the dangers are in the Sympathies of ‘political Islam’ and the Connections to those sympathies, far left included,
in fact this Has been somewhat of the ‘debate within far left circles’, including a recent publication of the now what is termed Leftist Anti-Semitism [sic] Cleverly cloaked, but anti-semitism is what it is, no doubt in my mind, because I’ve seen it among leftists,
–not that its important but just in case, anyone is interested I do support a Two-State solution between Israel and Palestine, with the People having control over their states, not the theocrat moonbats or zionists or hamas?hezbollah and all the other zealous Haters,
none, of which are friends to either women OR workers. AS for being a leftist, I’m of a minority opinion on this, unfortunately, more of the men support the extremes–and its on Those issues, if you’ve ever worked in that environment the Extreme misogny reveals itself., but anyway,
But anyway, just because there are views widely held among the Far Right doesn’t necessarily mean they are all wrong,
same true to the far left, and central, I tend to look at every philosophy and look at what is happening in the world and lump in too, the readings to see,
from many perspectives, or, where people sit, on which ever side of the issue, there is grains of truth,
and its not just right wingers that have these concerns, I’ve seen the concerns on liberal boards/blogs, etc., [though yes, more Extreme on right wing, no argument from me there and yes, much of it IS based too on Racism and American Exceptionalism],
its Propaganda from many sides, and as a Far Leftist, rest assured people, they are Experts at the use of Propaganda.
In regards to people not voting for Bush/due to Christianity, I would have to disagree on that, there is Just as much concerns over [and there was during that election] over Christian Fundies having pull in politics, the ONLY difference there,
is that its o.k. by PC to be openly critical and concerned over those ties, or with the ties, lets say to Judaism and Lieberman…
and I do believe, there IS an agenda to that, I personally, am of the view,
Separation of Church and STATE PERIOD…
NO EXCEPTIONS, and I don’t believe Religion, Autocracy or Religious Laws have ANY PLACE,
in the American system, ethics YES, religion, NO, and I would fight it [and I have] with every grain in my body,
I simply don’t believe you can have human rights and religion via the Law/or legal system, [or religious Repubics] at the same table,
you are either for ONE or the Other, can’t have both, Especially where women’s rights are concerned. So for me personally, I wouldn’t vote for Anyone,
who has strong ties Politically with Any Religious group that wants to make Religion, or Religious beliefs, mandated and forced on the public, via Laws or even Customs…and, yes, we ARE seeing changes, that even the ACLU has mentioned, though here’s where some hypocrisy is, from what I’ve seen, in regards to allowing certain things from one religion but going all gung ho against it in another, and its done under that whole using the race card [in this matter yes] and the culture card,
I just believe, either you are for secular gov or you are not, and When you compromise, that opens the door to all sorts of problems and issues, because Where does it end? There is, no doubt, some very blatant Double Standards there, and on That, I can see where the right wing is coming from…
Also know Heart I do watch a lot what is going on in Europe/East Europe and as you know what goes on there isn’t too far from what will go on here, and it IS concerning, very much so, and globalization is a behind a lot of it.
I don’t see America just as this lone island but a nation that is not only connected and hugely responsible for the international state of affairs but also who her interdependence in the world, and how the world influences America,
its not Just America influencing the world but the world influencing America, the forces that is, and they aren’t ‘all good’, nor are they all bad,
but I would have to agree that the neo-liberal forces which are guided by transnational capitalist [pushing for a hegemony of US policy/but not just US, same could be said for EU too, but anyway],
and a lot of what I see, is based on seeing through a global perspective, if that makes any sense, what I”m saying here…
too much macro and not enough micro, LOL, but anyway,
I do think there are forces in the world that are indeed, just insane, but all in all, its Who is manipulating those forces and for What, I think is what people need to ask,
and on that, you get all sorts of causal explanations and blame, especially blame,
its the Fundies or the Zionists Bankers or the Christians or the Muslims, or the Commies,
but truth is, its a little of All of them, depending on where this can vary, but its All of them,
from reading from across political philosophies from right to left, I’ve gathered that much,
but its when you start connecting the dots, the people who ironically, are like, avowed Enemies, but who sit at the same table, the money table, simply putting it, that you have to ask,
ok. something NOT right with this picture What is going on, and its Those, not so much on the forefront of the political stage [the ones we see on media, etc],
but the power brokers, the big corporations, the stock brokers, oil barons, etc., who are all connected and unless one is like in those money markets/business, most don’t even realize just how deep it all goes,
[now conspiracy theorists tend to expose some of this but its usually One sided, and then it gets into the absurd],
and This is the reason I included the right wing’s hypocrisy too, because even a segment of the right wing has been complaining about it, [Bush lost popularity within the right wing] but in regards to international Economics, free trade agreements, etc., its not just right or left,
ITS BOTH.
And what is just absolutely absurd about it all, is how there are companies invested in Both sides of conflicts, [i.e. also IMF, WTO, etc],
and yet too, both sides, right and left, point at each other and go, Uh HUH…
and its just corrupt, its So CORRUPT, and thats Why I think we are seeing more of the grass roots,
populist groups, not just the extremes nationalists and bigotry groups, but grass roots populist or alternative groups though small, but they are out there and growing, and its like all these little splinters,
all that have their take on the corruption, yet ironically, all influenced by it, that internalization and what I think, political Assimilation, even on levels we might not really see,
in regards to Kentucky thats probably due to the Myth, seriously, that white people aren’t poor…
that myth is So out there and how to say this,
ok., among the underclass, there Is this like, myth of the other, racial lines especially and Thats what I meant about the deliberate stratification, and when you Really see this and how its played out, is how genetrification [sic] works AND the poverty industry,
even how housing vouchers are given, seriously, thats one thing that was very noticeable the years I was homeless [with children] and dealing with the welfare system [brief time because though on the streets, I did work and didn't qualify for assistance even though I was WWAAAy below poverty line], and living in transitional housing,
the stereotypes about race Within poverty/crisis, is just UNREAL,
and This, actually, does A LOT to feed into, believe it or not, the bigot groups, because they manipulate the ‘ignorance’ of people [ignorance meaning not knowing how the system works to pit people against each other, etc],
so, like, sure, I’m not surprised there was more votes for Hilary in the poor ‘white’ states,
but I can almost guarantee you, some of that is yes, based on racism, but also, the fear that, if someone doesn’t represent them, they’ll be invisible still–
because you see, most people in America, don’t believe dire poor white people even exist, and if they do, its because they are either lazy or morally deficient in some way, because they are the ’scourge or eye sore of White society’,
they expose Everything wrong truly, with the so called ‘promises of America’,
and even immigrant rights supporters, I’ve heard them, and this denial of the American white poor, and its NOT their fault,
they are only repeated what this capitalist culture has fed them, fed all of us…
you know, the most Dangerous thing, to the system, seriously, Heart,
is the underclass in diverse neighborhoods, and This is why, in the poverty industry, they do all in their power to segregate them,
because when you get projects and shelters and assistance where there is a Diverse group, of people from all races and backgrounds and these people start Talking,
they start seeing through the stereotypes and the b.s., and they are like, Powerful,
and the system knows it, so they do Everything they can, to perpetuate the Myths and the Stereotypes,
there is a Deliberate reason why they segregate the poor…and ironically,
its not just the whites who do this, a poor underclass that has ‘class’ consciousness, and that is diverse,
is the most Dangerous threat, to the present system at hand…[worldwide this is true as well], and when you are in that place, where you are in the midst of so many racial and ethnic differences and all are like in a crisis and poor, those racial stereotypes are yes, there,
but if you give it some time, eventually those stereotypes begin to break down, and its like a light goes off, seriously [there are those, that will just hang on to their hate, I"ve seen that too] but for most,
they start to see the stratifications, they may not be able to explain them, but they see them. That is why, this nation, criminalizes [sic] the homeless like they do, why they segregate the poor via gentrification and through vilifying them via media, etc., always that reinforcing stereotypes,
and Sure enough, yesterday found out,
the Denver, in preparations for the DNC–
a jail, being built, extremely fast–and other ‘jail like places’
for protesters of Recreate 68, NO,
for the over 10,000 homeless, here,
’sterilizing the city’ and its not the Right wing doing this shit,
its the left.
The entire ‘zoning’ area, a lot of those places is where the homeless hang out during the day, because the shelters are closed during day hours [and I'm talking, shelters that kick women out, the DAY after they give birth if they are pregnant, no kidding here folks, doesn't matter if she's hemoragging [sic] all over the damn place, before 9 in the morning, OUT she goes],
I could tell you some horror stories,
and its not just blacks or latinas or asians, in fact, a bigger majority or percentage is whites [women mostly] and native american indians, and Veterans, seriously,
so, here we have, the DNC, all about compassion for the poor, blah blah blah,
and yet, the poorest of the poor, are already being told, move on out,
if no place to go, they got nice little cots in a jail like place.
Caging them in like animals,
so, do I have doubts about the dems as much as republicans [give them this much credit, at least they don't HIDE their contempt, for poor or for race],
damn right I do. And its funny, no matter how much college or reading or how much I try to understand ‘diplomatic’ wise,
I just can’t forget, those years on the streets, and what I saw, not just from whites,
but blacks, latinos, asians, etc.,
and especially, from the system,
and I was homeless,
during the years of Clinton. So, no, I’m NOT impressed, whatsoever,
with the two party system, in America, because I’ve seen, through the lies and the illusions,
of formally free.
Tasha
Professor vote, eh. How ridiculous.
I’m tired of seeing talking points disguised as conversation.
you know, the most Dangerous thing, to the system, seriously, Heart, is the underclass in diverse neighborhoods, and This is why, in the poverty industry, they do all in their power to segregate them, because when you get projects and shelters and assistance where there is a Diverse group, of people from all races and backgrounds and these people start Talking, they start seeing through the stereotypes and the b.s., and they are like, Powerful, and the system knows it, so they do Everything they can, to perpetuate the Myths and the Stereotypes,
Exactly, and there seems to be an unspoken consensus to shut this reality up. Erase it.
I’m tired of seeing talking points disguised as conversation.
And I’m tired of educated liberal elites cherry picking the flaws of poor people so poor people can be dismissed and, educated liberal elites along with money grubbing Republican elites can continue telling the underclass what is best for them.
Heart said: “Having said that, though, what do we make of Clinton’s huge win recently in Kentucky and the striking levels of support she has among poor and working class white people there, women especially?”
I think there are a number of factors at work here:
- First, that Hillary Clinton is a formidable candidate, so it is no surprise that she has a strong following among these groups and others.
- I think Clinton has smartly positioned herself as being, for the groups you mention, “one of us.” I disagree with ekittyglendower that she is truly any less elite than either Obama or McCain, but she has done a good job of becoming Everywoman. She has worked the PR and successfully positioned herself. And I don’t say this negatively–good political candidates must “brand” themselves.
- I think many of these groups have a positive memory of what a “Clinton presidency” looks like.
- And I do think that racism plays a factor in some people voting AGAINST Obama and for Clinton. I have listened to too many vile reports from Obama canvassers, watched too many TV interviews with people who explicitly mentioned race as a factor in their political decisions, and read about the racist vandalism of Obama campaign headquarters here in my own state of Indiana. And before anyone accuses me of saying anyone who doesn’t vote for Obama is a racist, that is not what I mean. SOME people who vote against Hillary Clinton are sexists and SOME people who vote against Barack Obama are racists.
ekittyglendower, it is interesting to read how you view the battle going on within the Democratic Party. I actually see it in the opposite way. In my view, it is the non-elite activist and progressive base (Obama, Dean) of the Party against the machine, corporatist, elite, DLC establishment (Clintons).
Which brings me to, I guess, another point related to the “branding” of candidates. I think we all kind of project our life experience onto our candidate of choice. We want to feel that the chosen person understands us. I think this is the case with both Clinton and Obama’s supporters. And it is the reason that race and gender are playing a role in this campaign.
There is a part of political choice that goes beyond policy. Both Dems are more the same than different. That is why ekittyglendower and I can look at the same circumstances and walk away with wildly different interpretations. AND this is why tensions are running so high.
And I’m tired of people writing really long posts. Who reads them? Most of the time, I don’t.
“Professor vote, eh. How ridiculous.
I’m tired of seeing talking points disguised as conversation.’
Why, ITS TRUE?
You don’t THINK for a moment that they campaigns are directed to get poor or underclass or women’s votes do you? Oh sure, they give ‘lip service’ [Excluding Hilary, I would have to say Hilary has worked to gain women voters on women issues, more so than Obama--in fact, interesting reading from NARAL on this issue, hmmmm],
but anyway, EVEN in the far left, everyone knows, what elections want is PROFESSOR VOTES or that ACADEMIA,
in which, yes, is SO influenced by neo-liberalism [and NOT the good kind],
in fact, this frickin country was based upon that whole damn elitist shit,
Democracy, the whole idea of REPUBLIC and REPRESENTATION was based,
not on common folks, but by ELITES who oh so know better whats good for humankind,
because the dumb common PEASANT just doesn’t have the sense to know whats good for them, etc etc etc,
and that elitism is RAMPANT today, in right/left AND in that whole Vanguardist philosophy of the far left–only the PURE Marxist can lead the poor dumb peasant,
so, professor vote, nah, doesn’t surprise me in the Least.
LOL one thing I got to hand it to the whole Academia, is that whole ‘restrained but nicely ‘controlled’ radicalism, ROFL’,
just enough, to give you a taste, just don’t take it too far and like, explore BEYOND what the hierarchy tells you…[and oh my WhatEVER you do, Don't read the red and black anarchists of Italy or France or Russia...oooh don't touch that, just read what ever falls in line with nice OBEDIENCE to those in power over you because they oh so know better, anything else, well could be destructive, blah blah blah]
and of course, keep out those who MIGHT just learn enough, to be Dangerous to the status quo…
oh, LOL, yea, professor vote,
sure, Sure, in fact, I’m surprised they even said it as nicely as they did,
ah, makes my heart just want to yell Danton, Danton,
LOL!
Kitty,
I looked over the blog [I saw it the other day, its really good, and, she NAILS IT, oh she So nails it],
but, LOL, I just Had to laugh,
‘creative class’,
ROFLMAO,
oh Thats good, thats like, one of the best catch phrases of the day,
reminds me of the fascist republic of a little place not too far from us, LOL, its like, this place ruled by this so called pretentious ‘creative class’,
that, now get this, are Blatantly racist–and they’ve done all in their power to push out the working class–its a university liberal place,
but, I had to laugh, I haven’t laughed that hard in a long time,
creative class = translates as this,
the rule of the LEISURE CLASS,
but, the one from Europe, who talked about how the Leisure class took over polemic in Europe, DITTO,
he said it way better than I did. Great blog, thanks for posting it, I’ll be bookmarking that one.
“And I’m tired of people writing really long posts. Who reads them? Most of the time, I don’t”
ROFL,
yea, this is Why, we have the elite power structure we do in this country,
lack of reading…
Women.
The turn this thread has taken isn’t what I had in mind for this thread. You’ve all got good things to say, but there’s way too much snark going on (more that I haven’t approved than that I have), it’s discouraging and demoralizing to me, and I’m sure to others reading, and I’m not up to moderating this kind of discussion, with this kind of snark, on my blog.
Tasha, you have many good things to say, and I appreciate them, but I think there is a point of diminishing returns when any one poster’s comments are too many and too long. The choice then for women reading is to somehow make the time to read in order to fully participate — often not possible, a lot of women read/comment mainly from work during moments grabbed here and there — or to drop out of the discussion for lack of time to read everything. I want everyone who wants to participate to be able to without feeling overwhelmed by the number and length of comments from a single poster.
Anyway, there are good things to discuss here, but I don’t want the snarking and nastiness that is all across the blogosphere around the campaigns. There are plenty of places for that, this doesn’t need to be one of them.
Thanks.
Heart
Tasha, you have many good things to say, and I appreciate them, but I think there is a point of diminishing returns when any one poster’s comments are too many and too long. The choice then for women reading is to somehow make the time to read in order to fully participate — often not possible, a lot of women post mainly from work during moments grabbed here and there — or to drop out of the discussion for lack of time to read everything.
Has this ever been told to Satsuma?
ekittyglendower, no, I haven’t told this to Satsuma. But, many times I have not approved her comments or have edited them, and Satsuma has stated publicly in her comments here that she’s fine with my not approving her comments or doing whatever I want, given that this is my blog. On one occasion I e-mailed her to explain why I didn’t approve a quite lengthy and, in general, thoughtful comment. She quickly responded that it was fine and I didn’t owe her any explanation.
Tasha doesn’t see things quite that way (sorry to talk about either of you, Tasha, or Satsuma, in the third person, no offense intended). Tasha recently commented here that she would have felt violated if I didn’t approve a comment in full rather than post an excerpt only. Also, I’ve asked Tasha on at least one other occasion to consider the length and number of her posts.
I appreciate what all of you have to say, but when comments are too many and too long, fewer women, in the end, feel they can participate, and I think that’s a loss for all of us.
Heart,
that response on the feeling violated was Only in response to the post in that discussion, because of some things,
not usually I get upset over things like that…and yes I do understand that women don’t have time [meaning those at work] to pour over long posts–no offense taken there,
I do tend, sometimes to elaborate, to cover many points, ONLY to explain from a different perspective [taking from many facets] rather than the usual bilinear that we get in politics, and that I feel misguides people [we get so much of that via political coverage on t.v. anyway],
my response about the reading was just comical, because the, or I felt, the reply about the long post Due to the discussion at hand, was more intended to redirect from the focus of what I was trying to say, rather than it just being about long posts,
like, how it was said by one, and said by Kitty, are two different things…and I understand what you and Kitty are saying, not a problem there,
I don’t get offended over things like that, I’m pretty laid back that way, and I should add, because I do have an eccentric view I guess is the word from the mainstream views [not that I'm the only one, no, just we are, probably not as vocal due to many things] but I tend to have a sense of humor about these things,
you kind of have to, when you know, either way, it won’t make much of a difference….though I will say, the debate between the Obama supporters and Hilary supporters, is very interesting and it reveals much…
as for number of posts, sorry bout that, I haven’t posted on here in long long while [or on other boards] due to other things,work, activism, etc., I do, I admit, have a tendency to try and fill in a lot where I’ve missed,
I’ll cut back, no way was intending to shut anyone out,
just wanted, to be a voice, for a segment, that, doesn’t even get air time in this nation [or computer as most of them don't even have computers],
to show the elites [if they do read this space], that the underclass,
is not as naive as they think. Only for that reason…
Peace,
Tasha
Just a quick correction,
where I said about the poor whites in the states that voted for Hilary, that it could be racism, etc.,
I’ve been thinking about that one, and I think, I am wrong there,
because, one thing, all the blame on ‘white poor trash’ for racism,
I’ve YET TO SEE,
ONE POOR WHITE TRASH,
refusing a bank loan or redefining districts or refusing employment
to African Americans or any other Race–
so, this idea that poor white trash votes for Hilary out of racism
I think, is just a clever means, of the Elites and wealthy, to transfer and project their RACISM onto another class of people…and who better to blame,
than us poor white trash…[the ones, who its Still acceptable in This country, the Joe Dirts and all,
to defile, ridicule, make jokes about, etc., in the land of the Free and Equality and all that jazz...
so, my APOLOGIES, SINCERE,
to all the white people, who voted for Hilary [because Yes, poor white trash --I'm one of them] Can vote, out of interest, class and work and international policy,
and not just, racial identity.
JUST as many African Americans, Asians and Latinas, can do the same AND DO–and I’m sure, not every one has voted for Obama–
or Hilary, sure there are just as many, who are voting for the right wing. The whole line of poor whites voting out of Racism or people of color voting out of racial identity,
exposes the ugly nature of prejudice in this nation,
the elites had better know, people of color, and us poor white trash, can VOTE, based on Policy,
race and gender, aren’t the only guiding factors, NOT BY A LONG SHOT.
think this is relevant, to everything that has been discussed here, by many
Whiteness Studies and the Erasure of Gender–why an intersectional [sic] approach is needed, because just taking one strand, out of the tapestry–reinforces, all other oppressions [from the essay], I like that…
also, in all the studies, it Would be interesting, to see one, done on the ‘class blindness’ not only in white society but society has a whole…
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1751-9020.2007.00014.x?cookieSet=1
Tasha I’ve tried to read your comments and just give up. They are too long for me, and it’s frustrating because I think you have good thoughts. Just ONE of your posts here was 2,791 words. That’s as much as a normal length magazine article. But then you made other posts.
Please consider those who have vision problems. and have to spend so much time struggling to read.
Hi EKitty. I’ve missed you.
Hey, Tasha, thanks for that clarification about the post I excerpted– I understand better now. I do think your voice is important and I appreciate what you write. That’s kind of part of the frustration– if there is too much, I can’t keep up and when I can’t keep up, I can’t moderate well because I’m not keeping up and the discussions we might have had we don’t get to have as often as we might’ve.
Tasha: and this hypocrisy towards Women is so noticeable within the far left revolutionary and liberal-progressive groups, and its one of the major reasons I left and became Independent Leftist–THOUGH IMPORTANT, I want to add, that Communist/Leftist women FROM Islamic NATIONS do not support and are very vocal about it, the Western liberal multi-cultural ‘excuses’ for the abuse of women, feminists I mean, I am friends with many of them, perishing literally in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc., and their rage,
YES. A more amazing group of women, a more courageous group, cannot be found anywhere. We are talking about the Million Signatures Campaign, RAWA (Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan), the Homa Darabi Foundation (”Rage Against the Veil”), Nawal Saadawi of Egypt, my god, what a woman, Malalai Joya of Afghanistan, our good friend, the Apostate, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. These women are HEROES. Every one of them.
is not just directed towards the Blatant and I mean, horrid misogyny [and rage against America for feeding into that power structure that pushes that crap] but their rage is against the American women who in their attempts to be ‘understanding’ and this twisted view that women LIKE that treatment — there is a lot of rage and its understandable…
So true. I may be wrong in this, but my thinking is, if Obama is the next President, and if by his actions he seems to be more part of or supportive of this latter group of women than the former, and again, maybe I’m wrong, but I think Michelle Obama might straighten him out right quick? I have a certain faith in Michelle Obama– something about her. She has that combination of depth, brilliance, and cut-the-bullshit that inspires, in me, at least, a lot of confidence. She’s a lawyer and has that, nuh-uh, show me the money thing about her. By contrast, I have zero to negative googleplex of confidence in Bill Clinton to be at all helpful in any way to Hillary Clinton’s presidency, including if she should begin to listen too much to this latter group of women you’re describing, to placate them, than the former.
And see, this is EXHIBIT A of what I mean! I think we could have an amazing discussion of just these two paragraphs of your comment, Tasha! You put a lot out there that is really worth talking about and it’s a shame to miss any of it because anyone gets discouraged before she starts!
Also know Heart I do watch a lot what is going on in Europe/East Europe and as you know what goes on there isn’t too far from what will go on here, and it IS concerning, very much so, and globalization is a behind a lot of it.
Oh yes, I hear you, and the same thing that is going on in Europe in certain places re Islamic fundamentalism is also going on in CANADA where there are increasingly honor killings and increasingly authorities are hesitant to arrest, and Canada is VERY CLOSE.
Really GREAT everything you said about the way the system separates/segregates the poor and also about the way the poor *also* often are great believers in the American Dream, Horatio Alger mythology, and it’s completely understandable, sometimes hope is all a person has. If they can believe that if they just work hard enough/get the right breaks/stop using/abusing substances/get the right job/get a place to live,whatever, they too can be Bill Gates someday, maybe they can make it through another homeless night and feel (sadly) a little bit better than the suicidal, despairing person who can’t believe any of it for shit.
There’s a heartbreaking CNN video that I found over at Shannon’s about a 67-year-old woman living in her car in a gated parking lot some city in California has created for women like her– older women, living in their cars. The woman is the mother of three. She had done mortgage loan work but lost her job (I wonder why, dear God, can we say DEREGULATION under the Shrubbery) and can’t get work now. She has a part time job making eight bucks an hour and gets social security but none of it is enough to get an apartment. Every night she sleeps in her car with her beautiful, smiling, healthy dogs. She has cute quilts in there and has saved some of her china and things from when times were better. She lost her condo a couple of months ago after losing her job. The hardest thing to watch for me in that video is where she describes how one of her daughters who is living with friends calls her crying about her sleeping in her car, and her mom tells her it’s okay, she’s safe in the gated parking lot (that she has to be out of at 7 a.m. each morning, no bathrooms, no showers, nothing). She says the daughter should not worry because she has a job, she’s okay, she has her health, her dogs, and things will get better. God, I cried, listening to that. She *has* to believe it will be okay to continue to survive. This part of California has created 12 parking lots for people living in the cars, many of them formerly middle class. In this certain way, it’s like so many people have Stockholm Syndrome with respect to the American government/system/economy, this weird faith and trust that keeps them going when it’s revolution we have to have, and that will only come when everybody faces up to the fact that we really cannot trust or have any faith in this system.
Tami, thanks for that really good analysis. I definitely agree that some will vote against Clinton because she is a woman and some will vote against Obama because he is black. Months ago when the campaigns were just getting underway, my 30-year-old son and I were talking about everything. He said with a sort fatalistic certitude that he believed Clinton would get the nomination. He said, “I just don’t think the country is ready for a black president.” It was so interesting to me how sure he was– I felt as sure that the country would not be ready for a woman president. I remember thinking that this is where, in general, I defer to the opinions of my kids. Maybe not defer, but I assume that their predictions about something like this might be closer to the mark than mine because they experience racism all of the time in a way that I don’t. I remember feeling surprised and thinking huh, I wonder if he’s right, because I felt so strongly that Obama would get the nomination. I wonder how much, in the end, it will be racism and sexism that, in fact, are the deciding factors, given, like you say, how really similar the candidates actually are. All the more reason, in my mind, to resist getting pulled into to the really heated, ugly crap around the campaigns. I refuse.
Tami, you said
Interesting, yes, but I do not see it either of those ways. I think Obama and Dean have captured the imagination of the activist and progressive base, but I think that is all imagination. It is like the slogan of the “progressive” talk radio station in Los Angeles, “progressive, the new mainstream.” I see far more of the mainstream than anything I would call progressive from Obama and Dean. But then, progressive is rather an empty word for me anyway.
You noted Clinton and Obama are more the same than different. That is my point. It seems likely they will both be on the ticket. Meanwhile, I see people making distinctions that are not real. For instance, both denounced Rev. Wright, after both had previously held him in high regard. Then there is this story about Obama not taking the big money, perhaps the biggest selling point for progressives seeking distance from the DLC machine. He may be getting more small contributions than is usual, or perhaps more than any mainstream candidate ever, but he is still getting plenty of money from deep pockets. He obfuscates that for obvious reasons, so he can claim to be the candidate of change, not beholden to big money. Randi Rhodes especially makes a big deal of this. She says his average contribution is $96, and that most of his donors are chipping in ten or twenty dollars. If that were the case, the relatively small number of big donors making up that difference are contributing the bulk of his money. If anyone wants to be thoroughly disillusioned about Obama being independent of the big money interests, I suggest reading these articles from Pam Martens, a woman who worked on Wall Street for over two decades. http://www.counterpunch.org/martens05052008.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/martens05062008.html
I am working on a blog post delineating why I cannot support Obama. I already have one about Clinton, my response to Robin Morgan.
Everything above is very interesting and thoughtful. I have no great insights for the evening, and will try to write shorter posts. Sorry everyone, but I can type about 125 words or more per minute, and I think very fast. My colleagues and friends often get overwhelmed with my energy.
My partner once likened my writing style to “a cannon blast at noon.” We have a veriatable dictionary of these funny terms that we have accumulated on each other over the decades.
I tend to like lengthy posts, with complex weaving ideas, but then I read a lot and enjoy length and complexity. I tend to really love very verbose women who write essays, and smart brained women are the very best people on earth in my opinion.
The key is to say what you want, let the moderator figure out what the limits are, and be bold with your ideas! Be bold women, because the only thing you have to fear is fear itself!! Always loved that quote!!
I really liked Naomi Glen Bloom (sorry for the spelling, but the scroll demon now won’t let me find your post above
I think you are really on to something Naomi, about older women and Hillary. It is their great sense of loss, and also their great sense of pride in her heroic campaign.
Older generations of women and lesbians and gays live in this twilight sense of regret oftentimes. I just read an incredible book that talks about this : “Feeling Backward” by Heather Love. (Nominated for a Lambda Literary Award– the gay and lesbian equivilent of the Booker Prize and National Book Award all rolled into one). Love discusses the literature of pain and social isolation that was the creation of gay and lesbian writers going back almost a century, and how often young people have no idea of this. Heather Love says that the pain of this existence is worth reclaiming as a valid history of gay and lesbian life. I found her words so on the mark, and so filled with incredible literary insight, and the above quotes kind of fit into this.
People can really fear social rejection, and so they become conformist. They were more conformist and didn’t take the certain kinds of risks. Liberation is about risking everything on a dream. We often think that people lose when they do this, but I have found that the more courage you have, the better off you become, both materially and spiritually. And intellectually too, don’t forget smart brained women
But this is often lost on women who are many times overly cautious, or overly dependent on men. It’s a big trap actually.
The truth is, when you come out, you gain a huge amount of personal power. You can read several books a week, watch CNN, and write lengthy posts on Heart’s lovely little ranch on the Internet
Hillary’s big win in Kentucky, ah we have consolations! Guess Obama needs to get a map of the U.S. so that he knows that Kentucky is closer to Illinois than he thinks
Now who is the new president of Russia Senator Clinton? Now, Senator Obama, who is the president of Russia?
No wonder Senator Clinton complained about how she was always asked the first question in the debates, maybe they should have asked where Kentucky was on the map.
(I know don’t be so snippy….
P.S. Oh dear, I just looked… eeek, even when I think I’m writing this short note, it still looks like an essay!! What’s a big mouth ornery lesbian to do???? The writing space online is deceptive as to space… an excuse…
***And I’m tired of people writing really long posts. Who reads them? Most of the time, I don’t.***
Tasha’s posts are long, but as one who has taken the trouble of trying to read and understand them, I can say that it is well worth the effort. I don’t understand everything she says, due to her idiosyncratic style, but I have gotten enough meaning out of her posts to know that she has something significant to say. Tasha’s posts are very long and involved, but even they are mere simplifications of the entire reality involved in what we are speaking of. As such, it will never do to say that a single word, “racism” or “sexism”, “includes” all these considerations and that such single word speech has accuracy value. So sometimes, you just have to do the long, hard analyses parsing out the multiple meanings of what you are speaking of, or it simply becomes a Rorschach exercise in which all readers free to project their own individual meanings on what is being said.
My former screen name is Branjor.
And I’m tired of educated liberal elites cherry picking the flaws of poor people so poor people can be dismissed and, educated liberal elites along with money grubbing Republican elites can continue telling the underclass what is best for them.
Yeah, ekiittyglendower, I definitely agree with this.
Look, I don’t disagree with a lot of your point. I just find women’s own thoughts a lot more interesting than recognizably rehashed punditry from media, bloggers, or wherever. They don’t do us any good. They really don’t. They exist to simplify, stereotype, and soundbite things that are nuanced. It’s how poor white voters *become* (in their portrayal) raving racists, AND it’s how “professors” suddenly become a voting bloc (I guess the tiniest one identifiable?)…
Look, I don’t read all of the long comments either, but since they’re original opinion, I am much more interested in them than one side’s spin on a certain factpoint/statistic, rehash from TalkLeft or whattheheckever. That crap plain bores me to death.
As such, it will never do to say that a single word, “racism” or “sexism”, “includes” all these considerations and that such single word speech has accuracy value.
It will certainly do for me to say this, here on my blog, where I have written literally millions of words explaining in great detail what I mean when I talk about “racism” and “sexism”.
The comment you’re referring to was not generic or meant to apply to all persons here who comment to my blog. Tasha was addressing me specifically and I was responding to Tasha specifically.
Of *course* — there are entire *libraries* to write about everything we talk about here! There are entire women’s studies courses and Traveling Gynversity courses we could conduct about these ideas.
But this is a blog, not a library, and it has its limitations. I love so much of what Tasha and Satsuma and funnie and Kitty and Sis and everybody here writes. But we all have to consider the limitations of blogs.
As you well know, Thursday’s Child/Branjor, I was often criticized on the old Ms boards because I wrote too many posts and they were too long. HA. Laden-with-irony HA. I’ve been criticized for that in other venues as well. So I started my own blog and my own boards over the years so I could write whenever and as much as I felt inclined and found it interesting how many of the critics followed me around to read me.
This particular experience and others have taught me that complaining about somebody’s long, voluminous or numerous posts CAN at times be an attempt to silence them or discourage them. As with people who have groused about my too many posts and too long posts but nevertheless kept reading me for all these years wherever I was writing.
It’s because of this experience, among others, that in general, I have approved Tasha’s and Satsuma’s and other posts of women how have a lot to say and say it at length and frequently! I do NOT want to squelch either Satsuma’s or Tasha’s or any woman’s energy or discourage them in any way.
At the same time, there comes a point of diminishing returns when posts are many and long. When I look over at the sidebar of the 15 most recent comments (all WordPress will allow is up to 15 most recent, one of these days I will upload to my own server, but frankly, I’m afraid of being hacked again which in part deters me), and I see that most of the 15 most recent are from the same person, it is of concern to me because what it means is that the comments of other women who have posted are getting pushed quickly off the list and will often be completely missed, especially if they’ve posted to old (but interesting) threads, which often happens.
I don’t want women to self-censor inordinately now or to be all bummed out and stop commenting. I do want to create a place where as many women can contribute and read productively as possible.
So, that’s where I’m at.
Funnie, thanks for calling me a mindless drone, or someone who regurgitates left talking points. I can have my own thoughts and if those thoughts are what other bloggers are saying so what? Or if other bloggers put it in more readable words so what? This call to entertain you with originaility sounds elitist to me, especially since I think now, since you demonstrated a knee-jerk reaction to stereotyping professors that you are a professor and I’m under-educated idiot with a learning disability. If I have restated what has been stated on blogs, etc, it is because I am talking about what is being talked about. And in my post that point was how it is totally acceptable, a-okay, for poor white people to be stereotyped, to be degraded, insulted, because they are evil whites, all the while the rich whites are getting off the hook, they want what is best for black people, or, in my opinion they want to look cool because they voted for the black guy. Last time I checked no poor white was oppressing me, annoying the hell out of me at times, yes, but not oppressing me. I find it insulting, to confuse Kentucky with West Virginia (Never in my life would I confuse the two, Kentucky is a whole different world than West Virginia) but I didn’t see any apologies, or any mass demand for the people insulting the two states to apologise. Stereotypes are why I don’t play the race game on the net. Case in point, a very white bread sounding name (see the set up, the expectations that stereotypes make us fall into ) left an antagonising comment on my blog. I told her that she must be smoking crack. An accusation came from a black blogger that I must be a racist (if white, self-hating Negro if black) because I suggested someone must be smoking crack. Apparently, in her world, crack heads are black, translation, all crack heads are black or in her world whites call blacks crack heads. In my world, I know two black crack heads, all the rest (15 or so) are rural poor white and white suburban underachievers, plus two Hispanic crack heads (a mother and her adult son). The GED women that I help I have two so-called recovering crack heads, neither are black. Anyway, before my comment is too long and the whiny privilege class complains that this underclass member is spouting too much garbage without any entertainment value, I would like to ask, what makes it okay to insult poor (or rural or southern) whites by dismissing them, but wrong to stereotype professors and certainly minorities? Should the poor whites take one for the team? Either using stereotypes is wrong or it is not.
Kitty, I sincerely apologize for confusing West Virginia and Kentucky.
before my comment is too long and the whiny privilege class complains that this underclass member is spouting too much garbage without any entertainment value
Not having time to read lengthy or voluminous posts because you are working your ass off to support yourself and/or your family is not about “privilege” or the seeking of “entertainment value.” Not having time to read through and moderate many lengthy posts because you are working your ass off to support yourself and your family is not about “privilege” or the seeking of “entertainment value.” Caring that women may be kept from participation because there are too many lengthy, voluminous posts is about caring for and paying attention to the needs/situations of ALL women — the women who don’t have time (or physical ability) to read through them and the women who do, who in all likelihood don’t realize what the situation is because they are not moderating this blog.
what makes it okay to insult poor (or rural or southern) whites by dismissing them, but wrong to stereotype professors and certainly minorities?
It’s not okay, and nobody’s said it is. At least, not that I’ve read.
I’m definitely not a professor, nor am I concerned about whether or not professors are being “stereotyped,” nor do I think any professor “stereotyping” that might occur is akin to poor white people being smeared for being *poor* or minorities being smeared for being *minorities* or women being smeared for being *women* or what have you.
I will say, though, that it sounds to me like you’re using being educated as proxy for being elitist. Which is as silly to me as the idea that there is a “professor vote” that means anything outside of what the media ITSELF make it mean, which is funny since “professor vote” is one of those dumb media terms.
And phrases like “and certainly minorities”(as though everyone IS “certainly” concerned about “minorities” being stereotyped – which they Definitively. Are. Not.), and some of the other things you’ve said here come across as MORE than a resentment over poor whites being treated shabbily as compared to wealthy whites. More than offense at poor whites being discriminated against on the basis of poverty and class and lack of education and everything else.
They come across as you being irritated at poor whites being treated shabbily on the basis of their *race*. As poor white women being marginalized for being *white*, not for being women and being poor.
And I definitely don’t think that’s discrimination. Or even a valid complaint.
Because I don’t think white people (women and men) are oppressed for being white. Women are oppressed for being women and race is used in support of that. But women aren’t oppressed for being white. And poor white women aren’t oppressed as poor white women. They’re oppressed as poor women.
Similarly, white women professors aren’t oppressed as white women professors. They’re oppressed as women.
eeeeh, speaking of length and moderation: I just contributed spam that can be deleted if it doesn’t add anything. not sure how long it was or if it even did, as weighed against the snippiness factor.
Not writing much today because later, I get to deal with the system [yippee], got to attend ‘diversion’ with my daughter [she got caught with pot pipe, so now we get to pay extortion money, lol--oh, she's White too--as the ticket goes, never mind she's darker skinned than majority of Latinas here], guess Native Indian Americans don’t really exist, and, well,
then I find out, the cop patted her down for a very, very long time–but not the other woman who was older and my daughter is 15…
arrrrgh, so anyway dealing with that today, I get to smile and act like I LOVE the system, yada yada yada, though I am going to wear my Rage Against the Machine tee-shirt with a photo of the Chiapas Rebels on it, LOL [doubt if they'd even notice], but, subversive resistance—
btw not into the whole drug thing nor do I condone my daughter’s behavior/choice–she’s 15–they do dumb things–but the whole way the system is set up to demonize parents [but boy I do remember all those who said, don't scold your kid thats horrible], yea Where are they, not seeing Them pay the fine or go to the diversion classes, anyway, I’m not into that whole drug thing but the US drug war–is bogus b.s., there isn’t a teen around here that hasn’t been through the diversion program–and they all still use,
so, who is it really for? The kids–or the system and the extortionists–and of course- you know, its the ‘parents’ fault, rephrase that–its ‘mommy’s fault’ bwaaaa, yea,
well but anyway, La De Da, La De Da,
OH, then I find out, they make the parents/verse the child type of thing, bash each other [verbally] in front of everyone…like, Jerry Springer type of stuff — my daughter and I’ve decided–we will, rather than bash each other–we will, talk about how corrupt the system is and how the system, with its stupid laws and extortion via insurance and so forth, has done MORE damage to our family, with the stress, etc etc etc…and that, we will not bash each other NOR dance around a pole for the ‘noble’s amusement, we are mother and daughter, not gladiators, poor spectacles for the US Roman Empire–
ah but anyway, yea yea long post I know…
it Could be worse, a LOT worse,
Heart you mentioned Canada, and oh, SO TRUE,, and one of the points I did bring up that Does cause me concern, is the potential of appeasement, to those groups who would, want to establish Sharia Law, etc., now,
this isn’t just based on what right wingers say, I actually stumbled on this when I was working in far left because many of the men had ties to CAIR. There are, in fact, two places in the US, that are run by extremist Nation of Islam communities that do yes, want to establish Sharia, that and a few Somalian communities–
another reason I found out about this was some work done by a Woman Congressperson years ago, on the FGM’s being done in THIS country–and that still are,
so, just in case, people DON’T think it can’t happen here, they might want to read this,
because there is a way they could do this, now, here is where its Different from like, LDS [compounds--which btw, due to the Right Wing's refusal to do something about that crap for years, leaves the door wide open to all sorts of legal horrors for other women in communities under that whole 'freedom of religion'], and with Native Indian communities–
the one difference that People, especially WOMEN, need to know,
once Sharia is Established–IT APPLIES TO EVERYONE, NON-MUSLIMS ALIKE…EVERYONE,
Read, and be informed:
The American Muslim (Excerpt)
February 4, 2007
Native American Courts: Precedent for an Islamic arbitral system *
Issa Smith
“In the United States today, there is a system of courts which is just outside of the federal and state court systems, known as the American Indian Tribal Courts. The Tribal Courts deal with criminal, civil and family court issues, and have their own lawyers, judges, and court officials. The Muslim Community can learn from the experience of the American Indian Tribal Court System as we attempt to implement Muslim Family Law in North America.
I will use the terms “Indian” or “American Indian” to describe the descendants of the people indigenous to North America, who are also sometimes referred to as “Native Americans.” The complex and confusing legal relationships between the United States and the American Indians begins with the U.S. Constitution which in Article 1, section 8 states: “The Congress shall have the power…to regulate Commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes.” Since the constitution was accepted and implemented in 1789, Indian tribes have been treated as “quasi-sovereign governments”, dependent on the United States for support and protection….
Although the Muslim community in North America is vastly different from the Indian community, I feel that in developing a plan for the implementation of Muslim family law, we can in some ways imitate the paradigm of the tribal court system and its supporting network. In particular, I recommend that as a first step, supporting organizations dealing with Islamic family law be established immediately. A professional association of Muslims in the law field (of whatever specialty) is a must. A law school students’ support group should be formed, and Muslim youth should be encouraged to enter this field.
A second step would be to establish institutes in the U.S. which can supplement legal education with courses in Islamic family law. At the same time, pressure should be put on law schools to include courses in Shariah taught by Muslims. An idea suggested in several quarters and being developed by the American Muslim Council, is the moot court where students and legal experts can act out Muslim family court scenarios.
There is a serious lack of Muslim social service agencies. Muslim Family Services in Brooklyn, New York is one of the oldest and best-known—an example to be emulated elsewhere. These organizations will have to be in place when we start asking for control of our family court issues.
The process of implementing Muslim family law will not be accomplished overnight. Changes of their type take place very slowly in American society, and our community is far from being prepared for this tak. I commend the continental council of Masajid for organizing this conference, and bringing together so many workers and thinkers. I pray to Allah the real decisions are made here that can be implemented by those ready to work. However, I strongly urge that consideration be given to political realities and the sensitivities of the American public. Such a radical change in American law—allowing Muslims to take control over their family law issues – must be initiated from the indigenous Muslim community here in the United States. To have it seem that this initiative is originating from overseas or from organizations financed overseas, would create a very negative impression that would likely destroy this effort.
Originally published in the print edition of The American Muslim April-June Spring 1993” The American Muslim
Heart, I accept and appreciate your apology. I must note I was speaking more in what is happening in general terms and not you in particular. In your case specifically, yesterday was the Kentucky primary, I’m sure Kentucky was in the news, therefore thinking of Kentucky and hearing that Kentucky probably will go to Clinton, it is easy to understand how a state she won already (West Virginia) was mixed with one she was projected to win. What makes me angry is the accepted generalisation that the south is all the same. Nothing but inbred rednecks and hillbillies and downtrodden blacks who must run from cross burning KKK members 24/7 (apparently now, according to Obama campaign ideology it is not just the KKK members who are burning crosses but anyone that is white and votes for Clinton). And I’m sure people in (and from) the south can even break it down further to counties or geographical locations, the river areas compared to the coastal regions or the wooded areas different from the flatter areas, etc. I worked with a woman in the gulf coast area who was convinced that she knew where the furthest Pizza Hut to the west was that would serve Catalina dressing with pizza automatically without asking. (Slidell, LA). Any further west than that and it was a foreign concept.
The talking point used to describe most every white person who is against what is considered the liberal stance (right now that means Obama) is labeled being from the south or the area/person is becoming or like the south. The Clintons are labeled Bubbas, an epithet. There was no qualm about calling Pennsylvanians rednecks and hillbillies or Bubbas that must have migrated up there after the Civil War to get away from those freed slaves, no sir that was the motive, no other possible reason. It always goes back to those nasty dirty white southerns. An easy out for whites with money and education who want to appear above those evil white racists. Suddenly their white privilege is less privileged than the white privilege those inbreeds have because they use their white privilege for good, or at least they pretend to use their white privilege for good, but funny how their usage still manages to Other another group. WTF? Create a hierarchy to escape a hierarchy, –and no one sees this, or if they do, they let it slide because it currently serves a purpose they support.
In all honesty, when I think of Oregon, I think of serial killers. It’s like it is a freaky area where freaky perverted people go do sinister stuff to others. Why? I don’t know. But I have empathy enough not to dismiss them all as serial killers freaks.
Caring that women may be kept from participation because there are too many lengthy, voluminous posts is about caring for and paying attention to the needs/situations of ALL women — the women who don’t have time (or physical ability) to read through them and the women who do, who in all likelihood don’t realize what the situation is because they are not moderating this blog.
What about the woman’s agency to scroll pass a particular person? That option may not be available for the moderator, but it certainly available for all the hard working women who don’t have time to read a particlar person’s comment.
Kitty, it’s possible to scroll past one or two long comments and likely still participate in the a thread, but if there are too many long comments, and some people are responding to some or all of what is in them, scrolling through means effectively not being able to participate in the thread anymore. I don’t think that’s a problem occasionally,once in a while, but it if is happening every day, in multiple threads, then a certain number of women will be effectively excluded from participation in threads they might really want to participate in.
There’s also the problem of the “most recent comments” sidebar being regularly filled and refilled with mostly one person’s comments. This means that others commenting end up lost in the shuffle, especially if they are commenting to old threads. All WordPress allows is for the 15 “most recent” comments to show up. So if several people comment to various threads, then one person comes in and comments 10 times, very quickly, the several scroll off and nobody even knows they commented or reads what they have written. Which I think is a problem– everybody who takes the time to comment likes it when people read and respond.
Funny, stop trying to twist my words. I never said the word discrimination or who has it worse. I am talking stereotypes. You, Y-O-U, cherry picked professors out of my line up. You made it a case that professors were being abused by a stereotype, a talking point, therefore dismissing the abuse that others are suffering at the hand of stereotypes and talking points. It’s rhetoric like yours that dismisses and diverts the conversation. As long as people bring up who is more oppressed then the discussion can be diverted. Stereotypes hurt people who are being stereotyped. Is it that difficult to understand or do I have to convince you that I understand the order of who has it worse or I risk my point being dismissed.
And phrases like “and certainly minorities”(as though everyone IS “certainly” concerned about “minorities” being stereotyped – which they Definitively. Are. Not.), and some of the other things you’ve said here come across as MORE than a resentment over poor whites being treated shabbily as compared to wealthy whites. More than offense at poor whites being discriminated against on the basis of poverty and class and lack of education and everything else.
The above example is perfect and shows just how little you credit people. I don’t know what circles you run in, but in my circle, everyone is certainly concerned about minorities being stereotyped. Also, you seeing resentment is just another form of dismissing the fact that southern whites are stereotyped. Do you deny that southern whites are stereotyped? If you don’t then why try to divert the fact. Acknowledging that southern whites are stereotyped does not take away the fact that other groups are stereotyped and harm as well, if not more. But it is that zero-sum game that rearing its ugly head. If someone is pointing out a fact it must be because they want a piece of the victim pie. I do in fact resent that implication.
I’ll keep this short, last oost today Heart–know what you mean by the left side bar, why I try to limit my posts only in morning…
to This: “And I definitely don’t think that’s discrimination. Or even a valid complaint.
Because I don’t think white people (women and men) are oppressed for being white. Women are oppressed for being women and race is used in support of that. But women aren’t oppressed for being white. And poor white women aren’t oppressed as poor white women. They’re oppressed as poor women….”
This, is where you are DEAD wrong, sorry but I will call you on it, because This is Exactly what I was referring to when I said, class blindness and the ‘white poor–women esp’ being the SCOURGE/EYE SORE OF WHITE SOCIETY/AMERICAN SOC as a whole,
allow me, to briefly elaborate if I may. The oppression of ‘poor white women’ is not just poor women, though yes, that oppression of poor women [of all races] does exist, just as the oppression of poor women of color/compounded with racism too, Does exist,
but there is a certain type of racial discrimination by the SYSTEM, against poor ‘white’ women that is, or has unique traits, and you really see this if you ever have dealt with the welfare system or any type of aid, OR, in getting employment…
and, it is, too, more by White society that this discrimination exists [white vs white] but also, it does exist, among people of color who have ASSIMILATED into the CLASS CULTURE, and I would say, its some reverse discrimination but I believe its more, class discrimination,
in one post I did write on the attitudes [which are steeped in racism/that ghettoization -sic- of people of color/women esp BY white people, in sixties, etc., even before] and how those attitudes have carried over into this other type of false compassion, guess could be the term,no, Paternalism, which too is racist, which goes like this,
its expected for Latina or African American women to be ‘poor’ therefore, there isn’t the demonization [in White society, and yes, among some people of color] of poor women of color like there is the demonization of white poor women–
and its all, this branches from the tree of racism effect that I think, has a lot to do with this, because, for one, poor white women, many times are single parents, maybe divorced, maybe not, and not only That–there is that segment [like me] who are also, mothers of multi-racial children, and who are poor. In fact, when I was in the projects, I honestly have to say, the majority of white women I saw, on assistance, were mothers, of multi-racial children, NOW that could just be in the state where I reside, I can’ speak for the entire US on that.
but point is–poor white women, are seen as ‘deviants’, in white society, and yes, among many people of color, I’ve seen it, and yes that racism is there,
and I want to add, this in NO WAY diminishes or trivializes or refutes the TRUTH that women of color who are poor and women of color who aren’t, don’t also, contend with racism and racism mixed with class-racism, they DO, and I’ve seen That too [esp here, where its Latina women who get the brunt of the racism and hate, esp the poor Latinas].
And it isn’t just ‘class’, often times, yes it is, but like,
o.k., let me put it this way because I’ll have to come back to this at later date–maybe I’ll start a blog on this because its way, way to complex to try and explain it in a short para and I do want to say, that I’m not dismissing ‘white privilege’ here either–because this issue gets into some really painful truths that do hurt, many women, women of color especially and while I am very vocal against classism and against the demonization of poor white women–I in NO way, want to have that used, as a means to discredit the many women, who deal with much worse racism and classism,
its like this…most poor women, are demonized because the belief is, they are poor because they are NOT where they are supposed to be, under their ‘men’, so to speak, women are men’s property, marital property, and if they are poor and single to boot, they have deviated from that–or they are amoral, or they are loose [sluts], etc., when society looks at poor women, they either look at them in a racist way [in addition to poverty] OR they look at them in a deviant way [she's the scourge, etc],
and too, there is a real ignorance of white verse white racism in this nation, I’m referring to the early racism, like, Italians verses Irish, western immigrants verse eastern that is still very much alive today–just manifested differently or more subtle, or it has carried over–the atttitudes [sic],
Kitty brings up another good point–south verses the north, and it is, yes indeed, a real prejudice, that southerners are all KKK members, hollering white pride and all that goes with that–never mind that one the largest white pride and huge power base is based in Michigan–not the south, and other parts of the NORTH.
Got to go–I’ll come back to this in a while–I posted an excellent article that all here, when you get time–should read, about Whiteness and Gender Erasure, it covers some of this and why, we need to get beyond just the race and gender–only assertions, and into a more intersectional approach–
because believe it or not, that class prejudice and racism within races, is also, very strong within Black communities, Latina and Asian,
to close–lets not forget one very important fact too–our skin color, doesn’t necessarily say, what we truly are race wise–DNA has proven, that there are very white skinned people that are 80% African American, and one very Black skin man [who was a Black Nationalist], his DNA proved, he had no African in him whatsoever–this is something people don’t even think about–my grandmother, who was part Slav, was an cotton picker [and its what killed her--black lung disease, common in the south back in that day], I did a search on her last name–
majority of the people with that same name–African American,
it was, I believe a common slave name. I don’t know all the historical details, I’m still searching there–but we really don’t KNOW, most of us, what we really are, racially–remember, during Jim Crow days, it wasn’t just African Americans, it was people who had any color whatsoever–[I read this in a few African American essays],
part of the solution, I think, is deconstructing [sic] this whole ‘whiteness’ in that, what IS white, seriously? Why I think–the term Euro-Centric applies more, and I don’t think its people of color who need to address this–I think its White people, that WE, need to start doing some serious reflection on what it is really–to be white, if there really is a thing [other than just skin color, which is, in all correct terms, not white--unless one is Albino, its peach/creme and beige, depending],
but where was this whole concept of whiteness originated, and why? And I think, to really do this, we have to go back, all the way to Europe–where we, all, came from Tribes, with our own Native languages, customs, dance [that have been stamped out all over Europe, in parts],
because our ancestors, were forced assimilated, way way long ago [many of our ancestors], and DEAL with those roots–that would do, I think, a LOT, to finally purge the demon of race hate and hate, from the whole ‘white’ population,
if any of that makes sense–sorry for long post.
Peace,
Tasha
‘
The comments on CNN articles about Clinton speak best about why people *really* hate her, I think.
Not only is their sexism, but there is the ageism that heavily correlates with sexism as well.
The last time I went to read an article about her, a few days ago, there were at least ten comments along the lines of “she’s too old anyway, her time is past, let her go sit in an old folks home”.
Hilary Clinton is 60 – the average US president takes office at age 54. So she is not terribly far off the center. Reagan, who was fantastically popular from what I remember, was significantly older than she. Clearly this is just another manifestation of that combination of sexism and ageism that paints a man’s “golden years” as a woman’s years of “decline” – even though women live far longer than men.
The other thing I’ve seen, and to which, as a pagan, I am particularly disturbed by, is the painting of Clinton as a “witch”. This stereotype too, is tied in with the discrimination particularly visited upon older women. The old hag, the witch, the evil crone. Several people in the same article (which was about the possibility of Clinton being Obama’s running mate) commented along the lines of: “No way! You cannot let her be vice president! She’s ruthless! She will stop at nothing! He will need to hire a poison taster for his food because she will poison him to death to win the presidency!”
The old witch who lives well past her time and poisons the deserving, innocent man.
That’s how she is viewed on an archetypal level.
Some of this just is, I have so outgrown WordPress and really do need to upload my blog to the server. I need to. That way we can have as many comments showing on the sidebar as we want to have and nobody’s get missed. I sometimes try to sort of deal with this by not approving people’s comments right away, holding them in the moderation queue for a while so the posts that are already up are able to be read. But then women sometimes are offended thinking I’m not approving their comments for some other, less friendly reason. And it makes sense that it is confusing. When there isn’t as much commenting, I can just approve everything right away. Or when most of the commenting is to one thread, I can approve everything right away. It’s when there are several threads and a lot of activity that things get lost in the shuffle.
Haven’t had a chance to read comments yet, just wanted to explain all this stuff.
Just post and think about what you have to say everyone. If you are bored by a post, skip it. If something significant strikes you, then engage it.
What you put into things is what you’ll get out of them. The technology favors literacy and speed, which was useful to know. Since I don’t run this kind of a blog, I have no experience with how the comments line up in the spam lines, or even how they appear on the sidebar.
Personally, I think all these issues are quite complex, and I find it interesting to read things at length. Otherwise you’ll be stuck in the ‘Facebook” reply system that limits comments to short comments.
If you’re a powerful writer, people will be interested and engaged. If you’re a weak writer, you’ll lose the lottery of ideas. It’s not a fair system.
We all have different audiences and things of passionate interest. I’m very interested in some things, and other issues I could care less about. However, I still like reading the things I could care less about, because you never know when something will click.
Understanding takes time, and so does developing consciousness. I find the commonality intriguing, but I also find the differences significant.
Heart has her following simply because she is a good journalist, and I think she is a good moderator. I’m not overly sensitive about censorship or extremism here.
I think the conflict between social classes is significant here, because we really do come from different backgrounds. We all respond to oppression differently. Some people are beaten down by it, others will use it as fuel to achieve and create a world suitable to them.
You can be in different worlds, and nothing is ever very fair.
Even our little neighborhood chili cook off was unfair. The volunteer who hosted the event, got the first prize for the best chili. When I learned that the contest was unfair, I decided, “hey, it’s a fun neighborhood event, I like to contribute my boring “gringo chili” and the real satisfaction is seeing how much people love gringo chili.”
We all have certain biases. Urban lesbians of the north are going to find the south distasteful. Southerners are not going to appreciate the north. There are some parts of the country that are just fine, as long as you fit the profile, but if you’re different, it’s best to leave.
How else did we get the pioneers of modernism who ended up in France and London in the late 19th and early 20th century? I left the U.S. because I got sick of the homophobia, and I also could see the right wing idiots about to come to power in 1979. It turned out to be a very good thing to move to a country with a booming economy, the best technology and a highly tolerant attitude toward gays and lesbians.
When I was watching interviews with impoverished white people in Kentucky… the neglected county that no presidential candidates ever visit, it was intriguing to see that they were stuck there. It didn’t occur to the young people to simply leave the town and go elsewhere. They had all the privilege of being straight, and yet they were stuck, because they were trapped in the hetero family land….
Naomi:
“will angry, disappointed hillary supporters over 55 actually vote in the fall election? it would be important to get some of that energy involved in woman-centered causes– ending spouse abuse, making choices about our bodies a reality.”
It strikes me that this could be another one of those galvanizing moments in US politics, like the Anita Hill BS situation, where, when they force Hilary out (as it seems they are going to), the anger over this will push women to move forward again.
In every movement against oppression it seems to be something of an insult added to injury that finally pushes the oppressed over to the rage driven energy one needs to fight back.
Still obsessing on my moderation problems :p:
If you go to Twisty’s or Amp’s, you can see how much more is possible when you have your blog on your own server. If you look at the sidebar there are lengthy, extensive lists of all the new comments to various posts going back sometimes days and days, so nothing gets missed.
Without that particular feature, like on my blog here, sometimes people forget where they commented themselves and can’t go back and see if anybody responded! Because their comment has scrolled off. That even happens to me here on my own blog. I comment somewhere and then so many comments have come and gone I can’t even find where I commented or if there are responses. Ugh. Well, I can, if I go into my dashboard and go through ALL of the comments, but that is a pain.
Seems like I need to make this a project, uploading my blog, add it to my list.
Heart
You made it a case that professors were being abused by a stereotype,
That’s not even remotely true.
Acknowledging that southern whites are stereotyped does not take away the fact that other groups are stereotyped and harm as well, if not more. But it is that zero-sum game that rearing its ugly head. If someone is pointing out a fact it must be because they want a piece of the victim pie.
I believe in the “victim pie,” because I think oppression is important. And that it is more important than mere stereotyping.
That’s not arguing who has it worse. It’s arguing that stereotyping needs power in order to be harmful. Without power, it’s not stereotyping, it’s generalization.
Judging by what you continue to (incorrectly) say I’m doing and saying and thinking, you’re not listening. So I will stop talking. But just so there’s no misunderstanding, just to be very clear: I certainly do think Southern whites are stereotyped. Stereotyped, not generalized-about, meaning there is a definite power-dynamic issue involved.
But, critically, it doesn’t happen because they’re white.
If someone is pointing out a fact it must be because they want a piece of the victim pie. I do in fact resent that implication.
Since, in my opinion Funnie is hell bent on making every one who fails to use anti-racist talking points into racists I must clarify something I said earlier. Personally, I do believe there is a reality that can be discussed and lived outside of the racist/anti-racist lens. Instead of saying, victim pie, I should have said power pie. Saying victim pie may imply (if a toe the line anti-racist wanted to read into it) that I am suggesting there is a benefit to being a victim. And that would only be one tiny step away from assuming that I am talking about reverse racism. I am not. I wanted to say, according to people who try and silence others who are pointing out how stereotypes may harm a particular group of people, it seems that the one they are trying to silence is assume to want a piece of the power pie. In other words, the southern whites who are stereotyped are only against the stereotypes because it keeps them from having that good old power that the non-stereotyped northern, eastern, and western whites enjoy. Wrong. It’s about human dignity, not power. It is wrong to stereotype, and just because the stereotype happens to be directed at a group that systematically has more power than other groups doesn’t make it right. That was my point. But the anti-racist police who assumes everyone must be racist, or suffering from internalised racism diverted my point. It’s about basic human dignity. But I am learning, or should say seeing that the whole anti-racist/racist movement is more about power and who has it and how it makes which ever one feel than it is about seeing that every person on this planet is treated with dignity.
I resent the assumption that I want power. Particularly power that will be at someone else’s expense.
(Sorry for the multiple comments, I read through about once a week and try to respond to each thing that grabs my interest separately!)
Tasha et al: I totally hear you on the issue of Northern elitism against those who are poor, Southern, and uneducated. In fact in recent weeks I have been finding something in me that becomes more and more angry and which I have hardly known how to express over this, as I watch this campaign. Obama supporters I have seen often blatantly state that his supporters are more important BECAUSE they are better educated, that those who support Clinton are part of an “old world” that need to be swept away.
Outside of older women, Hilary Clinton’s biggest supporters are working class southern whites – commonly denigrated as “rednecks”, “hillbillies” (and that term has been actually used as a way to make fun of people who vote for her due to the shared syllables), and “white trash.”
There is a dialog often missing even among liberal types in this country on class. People will discuss poverty as something that should be eradicated, but the discussion takes place in general terms and lacks depth. The guy from “stuff white people like” blog put it best, I think, when he said, “It is a poorly guarded secret that, deep down, white people believe if given money and education that all poor people would be EXACTLY like them. In fact, the only reason that poor people make the choices they do is because they have not been given the means to make the right choices and care about the right things.”
This patronizing and belittling attitude is, contrary to the opinions of the educated upper class northeastern liberal elite, blatantly visible to the “po’ whites”. It makes them angry – can you blame them? If someone walked up to you and said to a friend in front of you as if you weren’t listening, “Oh look, here is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. They don’t do any of the right things. Their opinions are all wrong and their politics are all wrong and they dress funny and watch the stupidest shows possible on television. Perhaps if we made sure these savage types had more money and education they would come around to the right way of thinking and vote the way we know they ought to,” wouldn’t you be mad?
I was born in Appalachia and grew up in the Deep South. While I turned to liberal politics early and now have relocated to the Northeast, I find it difficult to get along with people here. While all terribly polite, they let it be known in any number of “polite” ways that any deviation from their standards of dress and behavior are “low class” and should be abandoned. When I tell Northern people I want to return to the South they get a faintly disgusted, horrified look on their face as they ask why would I ever want to go back THERE. When I first moved North and northerners found out I was from the south, I got some of the most shocking examples of – I don’t know what you’d call it. People asking if there were a lot of “black people working the fields” in the South. People saying I must have spent my girlhood lounging about on a porch drinking mint julep tea. A boyfriend whose mother insisted he must break up with me because he was Jewish and I surely had “relatives in the klan” who would come lynch him.
More and more I just get this visceral feeling inside when I hear northern liberals make fun of rednecks and other poor white trash LIKE ME. As much as I personally abhor most of my family’s Republican politics and their social values, I abhor liberal mockery of their “ignorance”, as if they were some lower form of animal that needs to be groomed. I talk to these people, yes they went to good schools, because their parents paid for them, had the time and leisure and money to support their education, to encourage them, send them to the “right” programs and hire tutors.
Do they know how loud rain is on a tin roof? Did they turn on the light in their room by pulling a dirty string attached to a bare bulb? Did they babysit their kid brothers and sisters for hours while still in elementary school themselves while both parents were out working late to make ends meet? Do they know what food stamps look like? Have they ever shopped in a thrift store for any reason other than kitsch? Have they ever had the electricity or phone disconnected because their parents couldn’t afford to pay it and pay rent and buy food? Did their parents have to hunt or fish for food? Do they know what government surplus cheese looks like? Did they get told, “Get a scholarship or you can’t go to college, because we can’t afford it”? Did they drop out of school to help their single mother pay the bills by getting a job?
The answer to all of these is no. Yet they still feel they know better than poor whites how to manage their lives, what their lives are like, what is best for them. The reality is that Clinton speaks to them better more than Obama. She constantly brings up the concerns of the numerous population of working class white Southerners, whereas the supporters of Obama (while not he himself) blatantly mock them for everything from their television viewing habits to their lack of an education.
There will be no agreement on social class, because we all aspire to different things. I wasn’t content with a limit on income that is the feature of a lot of jobs out there, so I took on more risk. More risk calculated well really will get you more results in that area.
Poverty isn’t a fixed thing. It is a difficult thing, but not impossible. Otherwise, how would immigrants, who come here with virtually nothing achieve? How do they do it?
In radical feminism there is a real inner conflict between achievement and advancement, and a desire for rigid equality. We all should know that we don’t have the same standards. I wouldn’t do well in a communist dictatorship because I value freedom of speech, and I am an individual.
Some people highly value the tribe, and I’d say I outgrew the tribe. All kinds of people get denegrated on this blog. Wealthy people that you haven’t even met get denegrated. Poor people get trashed. If you’re poor, you will actually be celebrated, but I don’t hear much from the wealthy feminists out there. A contradiction in terms? Guess again.
We need to look to the herstory of how women did things to understand the contradictions. Otherwise, we limit ourselves.
Margaret Sanger actually had the idea of getting a birth control pill funded and researched. She went out and married rich men, then she found a scientist who could invent the pill. I found all of this very interesting, because it didn’t really involve protest, it involved innovation. She was a courageous advocate for poor women, and yet she was also a racial purist who supported eugenics. A contradiction.
Feminists could eliminate poverty entirely among many many women in the U.S. by using tools already out there, but they’ll fuss if you mention any of the ideas that will work. So I won’t bother much with this anymore; it’s taboo.
I’m working on a lesbian spirituality project right now, and we’re drafting a fundraising letter. How we ask for funds and who we write to will influence the future of the project. We set clear goals, we have the A list potential donors, and the mass mailing, and the 80-20 rule of economics no doubt will come into play. There is an 80-20 rule to just about everything you could ever imagine.
Will we bridge class distinctions in radical feminism? I doubt it, because where you are on the wealth scale does determine what you like to do in life. Not always, but many times. We don’t all have the same tastes or aspirations. Some women are content with less, others want more. Women are trained to always be in the “less” mode, or it’s drummed into them to serve everyone else BUT themselves. To say that you come first will get you into a huge amount of trouble in the feminism world.
We can’t even get basic geography! Incidently, I loved West Virginia because of the John Denver song
Almost heaven…
Kitty – we cross-posted about the same thing. Thanks for clarifying, I understand what you’re saying better.
Hey – I’m angry too, OK? I said things that you not only misinterpreted, but flat-out misstated. If I got mad enough I think I could say you lied about what I said and did, and not be so far off the mark to by lying myself. But I don’t want to do it.
And I don’t know what the anti-racist police are, but I take it I’m one of them. I guess that’s fine. I don’t mind being called the anti-sexist police either. But it’s still strange to hear from someone you assume is on the same side.
What I don’t get, is how you can say stuff like this:
But the anti-racist police who assumes everyone must be racist, or suffering from internalised racism diverted my point. It’s about basic human dignity. But I am learning, or should say seeing that the whole anti-racist/racist movement is more about power and who has it and how it makes which ever one feel than it is about seeing that every person on this planet is treated with dignity.
…even if you’re mad. Is it that you don’t think reading it hurts other women? Is it that you don’t think anti-racism is a good thing?
I mean, I’m assuming that you’re anti-racist yourself. So what gives, with the terminology and disparagement, really? Why say that kind of thing, cordon some women off to one “side,” extrapolate being mad at some individual woman onto everybody who thinks a certain set of issues are important…?
Why does being mad at ME equal saying that anti-racists aren’t about dignity (unlike yourself)? What are you TALKING about.
Talks about racism and social class get a bit weird on this blog… elitism… very bad here.
So to me, when someone calls someone an elitist, I get more interested in what that person has to say, not less. I hate this false worship of populism, especially in politics. I don’t care to see Hillary Clinton be forced to down a whisky on T.V. geez. It is pathetic to see Obama bowling! Poor man.
Racism police, sexism police…. hmmm, I think a lot of us would love to sign up for that program
Do I get a uniform, badge and utility belt?
Racism or sexism is in the eye of the beholder anyway.
Amanata said,
“It strikes me that this could be another one of those galvanizing moments in US politics, like the Anita Hill BS situation, where, when they force Hilary out (as it seems they are going to), the anger over this will push women to move forward again.”
Thanks! That’s exactly what I’ve been thinking.
I’m kinda looking forward to it.
Why does being mad at ME equal saying that anti-racists aren’t about dignity (unlike yourself)? What are you TALKING about.
Of course I am an anti-racist. If I were not, using the dichotomy of racist and anti-racist I would have to admit to being a racist, which I am not. I can and have drown in many prejudices before, but colour is never the instigator, for example, I hate SUV drivers so much that I can only talk to one if I don’t know they have an SUV.
Yes, I’m saying the anti-racist movement is no longer about human dignity, —not predominately anyway, or if not predominately it is in the middle of being hijacked, or if not the middle, definitively a beginning that is picking up steam, it is about power and introducing another hierarchy to exercise power. Nothing personal, and nothing personal for people who are anti-racists. Perhaps I’m getting too far in the future in a theoretical sense knowing that we are still stuck in a world, no country, I will limit it to the U.S, that still has quite a few racists (too many) or if not active racists, indifferent white people. From that point of view I’m sure someone will ask what the fuck am I talking about. But the net can be a powerful thing and I see on the net how people must, must, know what race a person is even if the topic is not about race. I’ve seen so called anti-racists demanding this information so as they can side or not. So they can judge the worth of what is being said.
Oh, there has been ridicule about how so and so is trying to be colorblind. A concept in my opinion that has been hijacked by racists thus rendering useless now. Of course people see race. Duh. How can we not see race in a racist society. But to demand to know a race in an environment with a topic that is not about race is in fact reinforcing racism. To need to be with people of the same race is reinforcing racism. Although I don’t deny it is empowering but along with that empowerment it is still maintaining the status quo. It is a bind.
I think there are a lot of people who are vested in maintaining racism because of its payoffs. The payoffs vary and disproportionately benefits whites with privilege but I must confess I think some people of colour are invested in keeping racism static as well. Because doing away with something that has always been, is terrifying. An ambiguous state can be like falling out of an airplane, no longer safe in the plane, but have not hit the ground yet. It is scary. It is scary to let go of privilege, it is scary to actually be treated as an equal.
If something is racist, it is racist. Nevertheless, what is being hijacked in the anti-racist movement is the pay off for being, or at least appearing anti-racist. Anti-racism is a new product to possess, a commodity to have. Since in reality the evidence of this is probably few and far between, people (anti-racists) will probably not want to talk about it, much less acknowledge its existence. Far too many hip and cool whites, most always educated in a “liberal” environment assume the role of anti-racist police because it makes them somebody in a world where they may not feel like anybody. Often it is done in an all white or assumed (if on-line) all white crowd. Someone will say something that is not even remotely racist, nor was it intended to be racist, nor could it be racist if it was intended to be racist and the great anti-racist crusader will fly in with cape and tights and dutifully chastise that awful racist. They get the glory of playing hero. The payoff. At this point, the role of the racist must be to apologize while sitting in the corner and reflect on their racism until he or her is accepted back in the fold, –if ever accepted. Coincidently, this racist is usually a female.
Colour me cynical, but I find it hard to believe that whites, who have hardly any experience what so ever with a diverse group of people, and I don’t just mean a person of colour roommate in college one semester is suddenly so verse on what is or is not racism. It’s a veneer. A shiny cool and hip veneer. A commodity because it places them in higher value in a liberal hierarchy of ranking. A value system always creates power, a power than can be used for good, but also used to abuse.
It is that abuse I feel when I cannot even discuss how southerns are stereotyped and society allows it without having to defend against being a racist, or proving that I understand who is oppressed in this racist society.
I certainly do think Southern whites are stereotyped. Stereotyped, not generalized-about, meaning there is a definite power-dynamic issue involved.
But, critically, it doesn’t happen because they’re white.
I don’t think I ever said southern whites are stereotyped because they are white. I think I implied it is not censured publicly because they are white. But after reading Tasha’s comments, and thinking about it, when it is done to them by other whites, I do believe it is because they are white. Because those other whites think, just as Amananta said, that those hillbillies and rednecks would be good just like them, only if they had some education and money. The whites doing the generalisation are the racist ones. Because they are trying to maintain a power by shoring up their liabilities, their liabilities being rednecks and hillbillies, rednecks and hillbillies are threatening the justification of their power position. A justification that is never talked about and I’m sure some would not consciously think about. If it were not for rednecks and hillbillies then those whites would not be exposed to a label that would make them seem less than the superior group in society, thus, deserving of their privilege position. Racists would not want that to be exposed, if so, it would become too difficult to keep lying to themselves. So they self-perserve by policing other whites.
I don’t like the stereotyping of stay at home moms who drive SUV’s either if we’re going to talk about stereotyping and how it is so wrong. Hopefully no women here do that.
I think ekitty you are too centered in the imagined experience of white people in America, when it’s a larger picture of race and culture. (see below your quote).***
Needless to say, the minority, when it becomes a majority enjoys kicking the butt of the previous oppressors. Just look at Jews who fled Hitler and now support Israeli policy towards Palestinians. I’m no fan of either group– tiny countries wasting way too much of the world’s time with their spats and car bombs, but this is a good example of this.
Here’s the quote–just have to put the paste on the right piece of paper
***
“but I find it hard to believe that whites, who have hardly any experience what so ever with a diverse group of people, and I don’t just mean a person of colour roommate in college one semester is suddenly so verse on what is or is not racism. It’s a veneer. A shiny cool and hip veneer. A commodity because it places them in higher value in a liberal hierarchy of ranking. A value system always creates power, a power than can be used for good, but also used to abuse.”
White people is simply too generic, and it really tells you next to nothing about anyone. Racism is a loaded topic here. Everyone is a know it all. Too me, the bloglands don’t really reflect the kinds of connections that you can easily see in any major cosmopolitan city. You’d be hard pressed to identify as non-American a lot of the Cubans who immigrated to America.
Cubans can be black or they can be as white as Germans.
Look to South Africa as the blacks in that country have rioted against “black African immigrants from other African countries.” Cute.
As for the bias against the south, I think this is still a vestage of the civil war and the civil rights movement. The winners like to lord it over the losers. The racism of the south was simply more in people’s faces when T.V. had more power as a reporting medium. You get dogs attacking black children, fire hoses, and then you have the issues with accents. The news media still “speaks” in the language of the north. The bias again is when people in the south are interviewed, and no matter what happens, it still comes off looking bad.
Everyone jumped on Obama for talking about bibles, guns and I forget what else. But the truth is, when you drive through the south, this stuff is all over the place. Just try getting a Japanese car repaired in Texas and see what happens!!
White gays and lesbians socialize in segregated bars in Dallas, and the N-word flows as freely as a mint julip. You’d be shocked if I reported conversations I personally heard when I was last there in 1997. (Maybe things have improved since that time???–sure hope so.)
Then there is the fact that racism and christian fundamentalism are more in the face of the ordinary person in the south than would ever be tolerated in the north. I’m often shocked at my cousin’s stories of living in Atlanta, and the overt and awful racism he hears ALL THE TIME at his company.
He works for a major corporation there, and if he’s in an all white work group it’s “N—–” this and “the N——s” that. Very out in the open, all very white shirt and suit and tie bigotry.
They have mandatory prayers at company assemblies, and he, as a Jew, gets really weirded out by the jesus people.
We even have southern lesbians who waltz into lesbian bars wearing “confederate flag t-shirts” and they believe this is their ’southern heritage.”
The north has a more gentile form of racism, but in the south, you really will have more trouble as a Jew, a lesbian or an African American. Just look at the history of gay and lesbian rights in the south…pretty damn bad. Outside the pocket of liberalism in the larger southern cities, you still get hit hard with the stars and bars and all of the right wing nonsense that goes along with it.
“White people” is too broad. All white people this or that, or all white people are assumed not to have lived in diverse communities. That simply is not true, and never has been true.
In Los Angeles, you find diversity everywhere, what’s hard to find is homogenaity. Not everyone has stayed land locked into U.S. communities. In fact, it would be very hard to tell what type of diverse circumstances anyone on this blog ever lived in.
Within minutes of attending any major conference with my company, our breakfast table will be filled with all the Asian-Americans who work at the company. Just how does this happen? Because I feel close to those cultures and spent a large part of my early adult life in Asia. Do I ever mention this to the people who join me for breakfast? Never.
My closest emotional connections are with people in China, Japan, and South Korea. Our neighborhood is heavily Latino/a.
Spanish is the dominant language in most of the places I shop at. In fact, where I live, you’d be hard pressed to ever hear the “queen’s English.” And ain’t I a white woman?!
But what if my sister in law who is a stay at home Mom really does drive an SUV?
Satsuma:
You get to be post number 100 on this thread!
Go Lindsey. No stereotyping of stay-at-home moms allowed.
Satsuma: I hate this false worship of populism, especially in politics
Oy vey.
:p
I don’t know about false worship but I love populists and populism.
Satsuma, I think it’s so interesting that you and I get so much out of each others words and posts and appreciate each other quite a lot when we are so different in some ways!
Honestly, I have *never*, in all my life, wanted to have money, to be traditionally successful, to inhabit the upper class or even upper middle class. I never wanted it. I still don’t want it (good thing, cause I’ll never have it!).
When I went to college (UW) in 1969, I had just turned 17. I graduated high school at 16. My folks would not let me go to the UW unless I pledged a sorority. My dad, a successful attorney, had been a member of a fraternity at the UW. So I went through the ridiculousness of “pledge week” — which I found to be hands down, one of the most stressful weeks of my life, I even developed skin problems, which I had never had before and haven’t had since! — and pledged a sorority, Delta Gamma. I *hated* it. I hated the pretentiousness of it, the “dig me” stuff, the way it was all about being serenaded by the frat boys, including stuff like being thrown into their swimming pools, groped by them, etc. I hated having to go to all of these “functions” at frat houses and having to hang around with frat boys, most of them spoiled, rich, white and arrogant as the day was long. For one thing, I had completely sworn off men my freshman year of college. I had had a long-term serious relationship with a boy in high school which ended the summer of my junior year, and I went crazy my senior year partying and dating way too many boys, most of whom were total assholes. As part of the new life I wanted to create for myself in going away to college, I said, “No men for a year.” But there I was in my sorority, forced to go to these “functions” and forced to go with dates.
All I wanted to do was study and participate in the campus uprising which was underway. And that’s what I did. And ended up getting in trouble for it in the sorority and having to meet with the council and the house mother and getting punishments, like polishing all the silver and whatever. Gawds, I could not stand being in a sorority!
The summer after my freshman year I did volunteer work in inner city Cincinnati, the Over the Rhine area, the year after really bad race riots. I lived in the inner city there with other volunteers. I was never the same after that. When I came home, I told my parents I would go back to the UW but I could never live in the sorority again.
You know, I could have stayed on that track my folks wanted me to be on — and I don’t at all fault them, they loved me and wanted good things for me — I could have done all the networking kinds of things, could have pursued the career I thought I wanted at the time and would probably be pretty affluent right now and might be one of those elites women here don’t particularly appreciate, in my opinion, for good reason.
I just NEVER wanted this. It always seemed fake and pretentious to me. It seemed wrong and unjust. I didn’t *like* the people who wanted this and who achieved it, for the most part. They didn’t and still don’t, again for the most part, seem real to me. I wanted love, connection, community, shared political goals, the sharing of burdens and challenges, and a dedication to working for justice in the world. I don’t find much of this amongst the wealthy, professionals, etc. These folks for the most part are all about independence and self-reliance, not community, not sharing, not connection, not love. And that’s fine for those who want it. I did not. I grew up amongst these people. I loved some of them, but I *did not want* what they had. I wanted something much more human and vital. I found what I wanted, sometimes in strange places. But I don’t regret even my years in those strange places.
I’m just saying, believe it or not, some of us do not want money, wealth, affluence, professional success, etc. It’s just not attractive to us. I feel I need to say this because reading your posts, it’s as though your view is this is something everybody really does want even if they don’t admit it. I don’t. I never have.
I have “unapproved” several comments here, including a lengthy one of my own. I’m sorry for any confusion.
I have to say: this is my blog. I will decide how things go down here.
From this time forward, I will not be approving any comment that does not reflect or is not consistent with my own dedication to justice for women and ultimately for all people. I’m really sick and tired of my concern for and dedication to women, manifested in my willingness to approve all sorts of comments I don’t agree with, being exploited here and used against me. I’m just done with it. It’s not going to happen anymore. This is my blog, to operate as I see fit.
Jeezus.
Heart
Just got back from the good ole us of a drug war nazi fest [arrrrgh--OH, and wouldn't you know, first thing the diversion person said--
men are this, this and this but Women, are so vindictive and keep grudges and blah blah blah, [her analysis of 'women' and 'drugs' [or teen girls] based on her experience in criminal/prisons–hmmm, the re-enforcements of patriarchal capitalist society At its best–ah hum, and then, sitting through four hours of alcohol IS legal so not as bad, pot bad because its a class four–and all the while, I get to think, it wasn’t POT that killed my cousin who at 21, was smashed between two cars, no, it was someone drunk on alcohol–Joy Joy, there ain’t a Drug out there strong enough or a drink strong enough to wash my brain of all the bullshit I had to endure [and in writing agree too to keep CPS or the Juvi system from stepping in because I'm oh my god, Questioning Authority therefore bad, bad influence--never mind that I was the only parent in the room that doesn't use either alcohol or drugs, the fact that I'm questioning, Deviant BADBADBAD mother],
love the bullshit I really do,
Anyway, so coming here and reading all this, ah, its nice, it really is, OH, LOL, did you KNOW that,
now get this, this IS funny–distract you all a bit from the whole race-class campaigns and all that–but did you KNOW, that now, if you have in possession, 100 ectasy pills [sic] or acid, that its not only felony drugs–its NOW, you Ready,
prepare yourself–its NOW, according the US gov., Terrorism, Conspiracy to Overthrow the US gov, and I asked her, why? Because its,
you ready, hang on to your chair–ITS MIND CONTROL, AND THEY COULD USE MIND CONTROL FOR OVERTHROWING GOV,
BWWWAAA LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
I said, “damn, that sort of leaves that wide open now doesn’t it, I mean, that whole ‘mind control overthrowing gov’, gee, pretty broad don’t ya think’?
Needless to say, she didn’t appreciate my comment–but now, METH isn’t in that catagory [never mind that meth labs can like, uh, blow up your fucking house], LOL,
thats like, not as BAD as X and Acid, according to ole Uncle Sam–couldn’t be, that they use Meth [from what I've heard] in the ole military to keep soldiers awake–its what I’ve read, don’t know if its True–but wouldn’t surprise me],
But alas–I need to like, breathe out the whole five hours of tick tock orange pot bad pot bad and all the other [I concur, pot is bad, but its not like, the worse thing out there, but you would think it is, according to them],
So, lets see–brain washing here…
oh, to This: Satsuma, you bring up some interesting points, points that, are pretty common held beliefs I might add, in the whole support of laize faire, for sure,
lets see: “There will be no agreement on social class, because we all aspire to different things. I wasn’t content with a limit on income that is the feature of a lot of jobs out there, so I took on more risk. More risk calculated well really will get you more results in that area.
Poverty isn’t a fixed thing. It is a difficult thing, but not impossible. Otherwise, how would immigrants, who come here with virtually nothing achieve? How do they do it?”
You know, they Use [some still do] say the same exact thing, towards African Americans in this country too–lets see, that we all aspire to different things,
[translates usually as, poor people just aren't motivated and don't aspire, they said the same Exact things towards African Americans for eons, still do in fact]
lets see, “wasn’t content with the income”, there we go again…translates as, if poor people were not content, they’d Do more–they use to say that about people of color too, esp those in the ghettos,
“poverty isn’t a fixed thing”, translates as, there Is not stratifications, just individual choices [same thing said about racism too, there really isn't racism anymore, its just an 'excuse' or, Jim Crow laws were outlawed, remember that whole argument over Affirmative Action--same logic, there is no barriers and if they would just work hard and apply themselves, etc etc etc.,
there is no 'fixed' economic barriers to people of color,
and last but not least--my favorite,
if Immigrants can come here and make it, etc etc etc
fact is, Satsuma, majority of Immigrants AREN'T MAKING IT,
and it has taken YEARS, for immigrants to even get the rights, minimal rights, labor especially, that they have now and they are STILL FIGHTING for those rights--
or have we forgotten the Milagro Bean Field Wars? Immigrants didn't get where they are today Solely on just hard work,
they had to Fight the System--fight the Deliberate stratification of class and racism, to get a living wage--because our government was more than pleased [as many Americans] to have Immigrants work, living in shacks, with no water, harvesting and picking our food–
for bare minimum…and in fact, they are still, the cheapest source of labor in this nation–why companies go out of their way, to keep them here, NOT because, they so care about the immigrant, oh hell no,
but because, they CAN EXPLOIT THEM…
it was the Battles on the lines that immigrants fought long and hard, to move beyond slavery, and now, we are seeing that being reversed, meaning,
immigrants working for less than minimum wage, IS NOT MAKING IT, many are barely surviving, but sure, its Better than what they’d get in Mexico [WHICH BE THE WAY, IS DELIBERATE, BECAUSE THE WEALTH IN THIS COUNTRY, THOSE CHEAP GOODS THE 'ACHIEVERS' HAVE ACCESS TO--
IS BASED, ON A SLAVE ECONOMY, ENFORCED BY STRONG MEXICAN GOV/POLICE WITH THEIR UNION CRACK DOWNS AND ARRESTS AND TORTURE OF THOSE WHO DARE TO FIGHT FOR A LIVING WAGE--INCLUDING, KILLING THEM,
ALL WITH THE HELP OF GOOD OLE UNCLE SAM IN ARMS AND POLICE TRAINING, [VIA USE OF DRUG WAR MIND YOU$$$], which is Why,
so many immigrants come here–where else can they go,
we’ve [nation] have wrecked their local economies [esp on borders], with our NAFTA and CAFTA–
but even then, if they Come here, they don’t Make it, not until, maybe five generations Later–they survive,
by cramming two to there families in way too small housing, working two to three jobs for way under minimum wage, putting up with All kinds of abuses, sexual abuses included [women/children], being exploited [because its easy to exploit the invisible],
from every angle from the landlord to the companies to the schools, to the neighbors [who might turn them in],
AND THEN–to top that off,
because they can work for cheaper labor–that drives down wages of Working POOR in this country–
oh, and that whole bullshit about whites won’t work in fields, REALLY,
lets see, worked in maize fields, two years-from age 12 to 14], my mother–worked in fields, pig farms and building fences[on farm land--hard ass labor work], my Nana, cotton picker [not farmer, not land owner, a back breaking Cotton picker, poor all her damn life--worked till she died, went from cotton picking to washing dishes in truck stop--not as educated, but then, she was second generation immigrant--so far, none of her following generations have 'made it'],
lets see, big percentage of our farms and farmers, butt ass poor–who FEED THIS NATION–THAT AND IMPORTS–work their damn asses off getting screwed by uncle sam every which way they turn, cash crops, imports/exports, loans on equipment to keep up with the demand, etc etc etc, interest and bankruptcy,
but they All did manual labor–poor as ever,
see my Point is Satsuma, SOME immigrants make it, majority of them though, live check to check or not even THAT–
so, its not just what people Aspire too, people aspire to a lot–but, realistically, it would be Impossible to have all aspired jobs, who would sweep streets, who would pick up trash, who would wait on those tables, who would,
pick the food out of the ground that you eat?
People who don’t Aspire to anything?
NO, people who, due to locale or due to necessity, have to live, they HAVE TO LIVE, and, they do what they HAVE to do, to live,
and the reason they are poor–because those jobs don’t PAY SHIT–
BUT, WITHOUT THOSE JOBS, YOU WOULDN’T BE ASPIRING TO MUCH–
NOT IF, you had to farm your own damn food, take care of your own sewage and trash, can all your food, do all those things you [and the rest of America] TAKE FOR GRANTED,
and look Down upon, as dumb, manual labor, therefore,
CHEAP, PAID LABOR,
because, hey, its not Aspiring work—
but, tell you what, let all the Immigrants go on STRIKE–
let all the Poor White folk, go on STRIKE–
let all the Poor Blacks and Latinas and Asians, go on STRIKE–
for about, SIX MONTHS,
and believe me, not only will people realize real quick, just how IMPORTANT those non-aspiring jobs are, people might start DEMANDING that they get the WORTH
THAT THEY ARE DESERVED–AND PAID, DECENT LIVING WAGES…
because bottom line [and oh, btw, Sanger, not only was eugenics against people of color--she was Big time eugenics, against the POOR WOMEN, WHITE WOMEN INCLUDED--don't EVEN get me started there...she might have yes, done major strides in the birth control department--but her motives, leave ALOT to be desired, my very Strong opinion on that....
because here Sanger, a White woman, was, with the push for STERILIZATION [FORCED] OF NATIVE AMERICAN INDIAN WOMEN/AND WOMEN OF COLOR–who, HAD MORE GODDAMN RIGHTS TO BE IN THIS COUNTRY
THAN HER, OR ANY OTHER WHITE PERSON…[and I'm white, but I'll be DAMN, if I'll support Anyone, who pushed for eugenics--GENOCIDE against a race of people--]
you know sorry, but Sanger to me, is NO HERO,
[feminist or not--eugenics, is such a violation of human rights--and is RACIST AS HELL], I just will never throw in my support, even IF she’s a woman,
but anyway, YEA, women have aspired to do great things,
but lets not EVER forget, the aspired, have aspired/achieved,
because there was those at the bottom, holding the foundations–without them,
there would be, no aspiring,
and this is where, yes, the classism/racism against white poor, and racism against people of color, etc.,
is all linked, because it stems from the same ole philosophies, and blaming the oppressed for their oppression–a denial, of the PRIVILEGED off that oppression–
this whole idea that so and so got there because of their hard work–only PARTLY true, only Partly,
we Get to those places, because there are people who work at lower wages, Teachers for example–one of the lowest paid fields in this country, educated fields, without them,
we wouldn’t be aspiring to shit, we’d be running around like Geiko cave women, seriously,
every Single day, we reap the BENEFITS of those, who capitalists say, they just don’t aspire to the same goals are they are just ‘content’ with their poverty–
its BULL, and I can tell you this, living in TEXAS much of my child-life, there ain’t a shovel big enough,
to sift through it. And I’ll tell you something else, yea, there is racists and lesbian haters in TX and yada yada yada,
but you want to know something, THEY ARE EVEN WORSE, BACK EAST AND WHERE I LIVE–NEO LIBERAL LA LA LAND,
the Difference, is that they don’t HIDE it in the south–you get what you get–and, I found, when you talk to those people, you can actually reach them,
but the Racists and Classist and Homophobes in liberal la la land, they hide it, they hide it in subtle and oh soo clever ways–but its there, more sinister, and more ugly, and, no matter How many times you might try to reach them,
because they are in So much denial, sometimes its just impossible…why they are sooo civilized,
na, they just, know how to cover it better. And in ways, its way easier to confront and handle someone, who is just blatant racist or sexist–at least you know what you are dealing with,
its way harder, to deal with the ones, who say they aren’t, but they are…I’d rather deal with people who are just damn straight up,
than with the ones who are hypocritical and sweet on the surface, but full of hate and prejudice underneath, because, they can do FAR MORE DAMAGE, and you don’t even know they are doing it, until its too late–[why racism and classism is So much harder to confront in the North--because of the Denial or the justifications...that whole exterior of 'we've evolved',
bullshit--they haven't evolved, they just mask it better.
anyway, not to be nasty--wouldn't blame Heart for not letting this through--ok if you don't Heart--I'm probably writing more for my sake right now anyway,
seeing five hours of stratification and yea, class [it has So much to do with Class and yes, RAcism, that drug way and how that whole shit system works],
brings out the worst in me–brings out the worst.
Love,
Tasha
This is a fascinating thread and I am learning a lot from it. I don’t mind long comments.
I live in Oregon. it is very white, has a history of the Klan. And there are many people who were active in the 60s and know the meaning of sharing and community. I have become a more generous person by living here and receiving their generosity.
One comment on Northern liberals hiding their racism – it hurts more when the person you thought you could trust deceives you. The worst experience I ever had with sexism was right here in Eugene, with a music group I was deeply involved in. Once they ‘promoted’ me, and i stood up to an injustice against the group and myself, it was over. I had to quit or be fired. I quit. These were “progressive” (how I hate that word!) men, non-macho men, I did not see it coming and it broke me in half. And the women who were my ‘friends’ in the group turned their backs.
There is a lot of hatred of Hillary Clinton here in Eugene. I’m not even sure that Cynthia McKinney will get the Green Party nomination, because many Green men refuse to vote for a woman.
I keep thinking back to a wonderful book I read called ‘The Feminist Memoirs’. The leftist men in the 60s wanted freedom, but not for women. They wanted the women around to file, clean, make copies, cook, have sex. Sounds a little bit like the anarchist men of the 90’s.
Julia,
isn’t That the truth, “Sounds a little bit like the anarchist men of the 90’s.”
LOL, why they call it “malearchy”, ROFL,
and it hasn’t changed in the anarchist circles either, unfortunately, but I know a LOT of the feminist anarchists took matters into their own hands and started a whole web site and group online, etc.,
though I haven’t been out there in a while, quit the yahoo group because is was dying out–pretty common sometimes in those groups. It was feminist anarchism that helped me tremendously when I stood in defiance against the blatant sexism in socialist party I was in–
and, their influence, had a lot to do with why I went totally independent.
and its So freeing, I truly grasp now the meaning of no gods, no bosses and no masters!
[though I still have my faith, its just, radically changed somewhat]
Tasha,
I appreciate your comments – you have important experiences to share.
I read that some women environmentalists broke away from the men that ran their group in 90s here in Eugene. They were tired of running the office, raising the money, taking care of the kids and said to the guys “you stay in town, we’ll go into the forst”.
So they did. They learned all the building and survival skills and did it on their own! No men were allowed in. I don’t know what happened after that, or if that’s changed anything.
I am desperately wanting to work with other women here in town.
Julia,
just NOW am checking this thread, sorry I would have gotten back to you sooner, there was an anarcha-feminist group on yahoo, not sure if its still up, last I was on it, it was somewhat dying out,
problem is so many of the women are just spread thin and due to economics, so many have had to move and they are somewhat scattered across the country, I do know many of them were working on helping indigenous peoples on the border, in CA especially because the murders/rapes of indigenous women are extremely high and the media is not reporting them whatsoever,
its really bad in parts of lower CA and AZ, etc. Oregon USE to be the hotbed of activism, its changing though, like everywhere else,
but, there IS a group, of young women that are working on the Recreate 68 [anarchists] that I did come across the other day, I want to say they are Liberate 8 or something like that, I’d have to look it up, not sure if I bookmarked it or not,
we have the IWW here and the Rainbows, but its majority of men, and what women are active, pretty much what you described, they do the majority of the supportive work, there are a few [small minority] that are vocal and active, but its pretty much like it was in far left when I was active there, either they fill a supportive role, or are the wives/mothers, etc., and only the few that were somewhat willing to be aligned with the men were the ones who moved up in the apparatus,
eventually what happens is that women just burn out and say to hell with it, for example, we only had like 21% women members, though the party had this like gender parity in the platform, which was a big joke, and the old patriarchs [some of them gay men, which frankly, they were more misogynist than the het men were, no kidding there], but did ALL in their power to silence the women except for the really ambitious ones who would and did,sell out women’s rights, one in particular [CA] is running for office, I can’t stand her, aaargh just thinking about her makes my Blood boil, but the men supported her because she pretty much just slam blasted feminism or gave it this type of scoffing lip speak, you know claim women’s rights but like, sure on the low priority on the whole scale of things,
and it Was really frustrating, I see it all the time in activism, even in the anti-war movement…they are all supportive of women as long as they take the role of CHEERLEADER,
puke puke, LOL.
And it was the anarchist women [before I found this space here] that, I don’t know, I think I was pretty much at a breaking point at one time and it was the anarcha feminists that just oh, words can’t describe, but they saved me, they opened my eyes to So much,
and it was through them that I did research and found This place, so I do have a lot of respect for them, and they went through living hell too, can’t recall All the details but there was some brutal attacks by the men in that movement against many of the more well known feminist anarchists over the use of webspace and so forth,
and eventually the anarcha-feminists just broke off and did their own thing. But then, here’s the problem with that too, is that the majority of them, many of them single parents, have kids to care for and jobs and just surviving and its a LOT on a woman to take all that Plus activism, and over time, women start dropping out one by one.
Economics too is a big part of the problem, women forced to relocate or move, there were many that were homeless due to job layoffs/non-affordable housing, and it wasn’t just middle aged women with families, etc., but a lot of younger women too, its just really tough out there and so a lot of the women only groups in activism, etc., don’t last long…
neither do a lot of the mixed gender groups either, they tend to like, just straggle and hang on barely, times are just really tough, but a hell of a lot tougher on women. Part of the problem too is the age, meaning that the young will get all into activism and will form coops and so forth, but as they get older, some couple of and form families and break off from the group,
or some get into jobs [out of necessity] and then life becomes just day to day survival, etc., and that has a tendency to change views over time, to some degree.
I do know, that some of the surviving groups of women, especially young women, you find them more like in the art world, Indie world, etc., now not so sure how, Oh, Damn I just remembered something, I do hope you read this, because I just remembered HOW you can hook up with some women in Eugene,
well anyway, LOL, there is a website, I used to read all the time, its an Indie artist website, all women/feminists, its awesome, now I don’t know like,
if they are all of the same like, ideology or beliefs, etc., but they are pretty powerful in their work, and its international as well and I found it to be really inspiring…
o.k. for finding out about groups in Eugene, [and this applies to just about anywhere],
go to Tribe.net, I love that place, they have just about Everything on there, now some is yea, like sort of ‘out there’ but there is about every alternative, feminist, Indie, anarchist, communist, libertarian, freaky, I mean its out there, group,
and there are Several from Oregon, and Seattle, Washington out there….it is THE place for activism, or it used to be,
I haven’t updated my tribe stuff in about two years, but when I was out there it was busy, busy, busy, I would say the average age group is about 18-30, probably more 20 somethings but there are a few all women groups.
when you go out there, if you do a search on Oregon or Eugene it will list all the groups out there, and you can see like how recent their activity is, etc., read the forums [they are easy to join, now Tribe.net is doing a charge now for those who want to like really have all this stuff on their tribe page, but its not mandatory or anything],
also, there is that MeetUP on the web, you could do some searches on there too, for all women groups in your area, see what comes up…
Oregon, last I heard still had a lot of activism, and they do or did have several women-feminist groups. Also check with the local Food Not Bombs and other similar groups,
often times what you will find is like the political activism, but occasionally you can find all women centered activism, you just have to dig somewhat, and in some states/places it tends to be sporadic, thats one of the frustrating things.
Our state USED to be awesome for women’s activism, especially on the campuses, not anymore though, you would Think with the Gender Studies it would be that way–but now, its pretty much just the GLBT community or other community activism and women’s issues, its like they don’t even exist anymore here, its annoying and frustrating, and infuriating to say the least.
I’ve lost a lot of respect for the Academia because of this, because like here, activism is highly controlled and influenced either by Academics, special INTEREST groups or male dominated groups, [and extremely nationalist now],
so, I just walked away from it all…just stick to writing now, and working with individuals or with local community, with homeless/low income, do what I can pretty much, and working with Parrot advocacy,
which is frustrating in its own right…but anyway, working in parrot rescue though–is rewarding, healing even more so…
It will be interesting to see what comes about with Recreate 68–but I’m not counting on too much changing,
because in the whole agenda, women’s rights aren’t even Mentioned…
so, I don’t hold out much hope there. In activism, it seems to be more and more segregated, feminists then all the other,
and the majority of the other interests, are all patriarchal as fuck. I can’ stand them,
but, I have sort of a bitter taste in my mouth after years of working in all that, so, I find it much easier to just do my own thing–
and sad thing is, I have this feeling, that I”m not the only woman doing this. Women turning inward, and whats interesting, is when I read the women authors/testimonies like in the Eastern Bloc, they all, pretty much did the same thing,
as more of the nationalism and male polemic took power, women turned back to the home, it was THE place, where women had some measure of control,
and there is just mega amounts of literature and art by women on this very issue, not just in Eastern Bloc but in nations that are extremely nationalist/theocratic or patriarchal. Not only that but the suicide rates among women in those countries,
are relatively high. Doesn’t surprise me, and the tragic thing is, I understand it on a level that I didn’t before…so like, any time a man [politically] comes up to me and starts spewing his pro-feminist blah blah blah,
I just want to deck them. I won’t even give them the time of day anymore…because I’ve seen, just how quick they will turn and sell women’s rights out, for race, for patriotism, for ideology, for their MALE GODS,
never again will I work in a mixed gender group on issues—because its always driven by male self interest, with the attitude of ‘to hell with the women, where’s my dinner mentality crap’,
LOL I have a really bad attitude now towards activism, anyway, yea, the party I worked in, its about, 1% women now, and the hilarious thing is,
the men don’t even seem to care. They truly still believe, they’ll have their little revolution all by their male little selves [and its not surprising that the majority of them, were divorced, just in the time I worked with them...that speaks volumes, even their wives got fed up with their bullshit],
and its in environmental movements, anti-war movements, economic justice movements, etc., the percentages of women is just so low,
and yet, the right wing movements and Nationalist movements, has a large percentage of women…
something Really screwy there….
Tasha
I came back to this thread, to post on the recent outcome of the primary in Puerto Rico, because it just came out on the news…
Hilary won by a Major landslide–
though Obama, its predicted will win the nomination,
the fact that Puerto Rico voted for Hilary, in a Huge way….
says something.
And I don’t think, Obama supporters, can scream its about racism there…to do so, would be, quite fucking ignorant.
So, I’m curious as to Why Hilary won by such a large margin, they aren’t ’southerners’, nor are they rednecks, or uneducated by no means,
nor are they demographically more white, LOL…
so like, what issues are they focusing on, in that they voted for Hilary, in their support of her having ability to resolve them?
Its I think, a very interesting question that deserves some answers…
Tasha
Heart Post # 103 — I must have forgotten this thread, sorry, I’m not ignoring anyone. Usually, I try to keep up here, but if I’m not right on target, it’s simply because I missed a thing or two…
Mary Sunshine–you notice the damndest things– post 100, is that good luck? Wow, I missed a numberical insight! You’re the best!!!
Tasha, love your posts. They are so amazing, and your last comment about Hillary and Puerto Rico–right on! Now I’m curious about the demographics there. The electorate is far more complex than is ever reported on. I don’t believe Obama campaigned there. And Hillary did. Maybe that is the simple answer
Back to post #103 — I so appreciate your posts Heart. I think we support a lot of the same things, and I like your points of view. Some of them are incomprehensible to me. What’s wrong with the two of us being completely different, and yet connected on our great work of radical feminism? I think it’s kind of neat.
I see money as a form of self-defense in a hostile straight world. I see a lot of women in poverty and it’s not a pretty sight, and I get angry at a world that encourages women to not get paid what they are worth!
We have a lot of myths about work, but I guess I analyzed it from a different perspective. I looked at what I liked to do, and then I matched it with income. A very important book that really influenced my philosophy of money is called: “Your Money Or Your Life.” Can’t remember the authors, but it’s amazing, and the ideas are right in line with saving the earth, being wise, and contributing to the world.
There was a line in that book that really woke me up. The authors said: “The purpose of work is to make money.” Everything else you can do as a volunteer, but work is the only thing you can do to produce money. This fascinated me. Too complex to explain here.
I associate poverty with all kinds of poverty, there is the poverty of low income, there is the poverty of the mind, the soul, and a million other things.
After a day of battling it out with straight people, I do like quiet spaces where I don’t have to deal with people who drive me crazy.
I simply liked so many things that a lot of lesbians don’t like.
Also, I see no reason to accept lower wages that most women settle for. I don’t want to rely on the “mainstream” medical system, and want access to better quality everything.
Being subject to constant hostility in the larger world, I want protection from this. So money is a definiate protection.
I look at a lot of women’s attitudes towards money as simply programmed by men. Patriarchy tries to fool women, and to make them less viable economically. Why do you think they invented the concept of the nuclear family? To put women under the economic control of men.
So many women out there have no idea that they are actually living under male subsidy, and no idea that they really have to plan for their own economic futures.
I probably pay double the taxes, because I don’t get the heterosexual deductions out there. I pay for a lot of heterosexual perks, and get really really mad about this.
Social security benefits to surviving partners is big with me. I thought it was better to simply increase my income to make up for the losses– hundreds of thousands of dollars in other areas due to straight family economic policies.
Women are pretty blind about this here. They complain about incredible poverty, but they really don’t know that this is not necessary. Women need never be poor, and there are collective economic strategies that could make this happen. What’s strange to me, is no one talks about these easy strategies here. There is the issue of women and poverty, or women in constant struggle to make ends meet, but then ___ a kind of blank spot when it comes to what could change this within a generation or two.
I’m a person who likes concrete solutions. I was very impressed when you told about an article you wrote about feeding 10 people on $200 per month–back in some other thread
This is the kind of practical info the religious right thrives on. But when I saw that mentioned, I thought, “Why in goddess name would I want to feed 10 people?” I’d have to slave in kitchens, be overwhelmed in my living space, and be stressed out just with the numbers of people.
What I love as a lesbian, is having a lot of free SPACE and a lot of free time. I hate the idea of living collectively with lots of people; I just don’t like it.
Women often justify poverty, because they don’t want to face it. Just recently I talked to a very well educated 67 year old woman, who is now poor. She never ever bothered to find the help she needed to run her business, and I don’t know how it is humanly possible to have no assets after all that time. This is a common theme with straight women who depended on marriage. Women will have no freedom from men unless they control the income, and the means of production.
There is this disconnect in feminism, which was once very focused on income issues. This is taboo in radical feminism, but if you don’t have money or don’t pay attention to it, as a lesbian, you might get stuck in all kinds of situations that would be awful.
I have a horror of being trapped in straight worlds, and I wanted lesbian controlled spaces and institutions. I deserved better in life, and I would not settle for second class citizenship out in the world. Money simply protects me from the inherent evil that is the daily straight world, with all its insults. This is big with me.
Women can leave all the money matters to men, or they can say that wealth is worthless, but it’s only because women believe they won’t have access to wealth in their own right. They will say that money doesn’t matter, because they fear making their way in that world or even learning how to do things the easy way, instead of the hard way.
We could have this world where women wouldn’t be poor, but first we’d have to deal with the number one cause of poverty: the poverty of the mind, and the poverty of imagination.
Maybe most straight women simply don’t face the hostility I do, so they really don’t know why I would want so much separate territory and separate space. They wouldn’t know.
All right, that does it. I will be back to read all these tomorrow!
I was a Green Party member. Note “was.” This has been the most disgusting campaign season.
I never realized how much sexism was still out there.
Sorry to be so stupid.
If I’m off topic, please delete my comment but I just want to share a bit of what I saw and felt.
Leading up to 2008, I was planning to vote for Cynthia McKinney. This will be my second presidential election to vote in (I’m 27). As an African-American woman, I was so thrilled that Cynthia was not just coming over to my party but running. Then I saw something else happen.
I saw Green websites go ga-ga over Ralph Nader. Green websites run by men or women had been praising Cynthia and leading this big push to get her to run. She’d said in August that she wasn’t going to. It took convincing.
But the second they thought they had Ralph, Cynthia seemed to fall off the radar.
Then Ralph announced he was running but that he wouldn’t seek the national Green nomination.
I saw fury and angrer and saw Cynthia, pushed aside when they could have Ralph, suddenly treated like she was always first choice.
I felt like they thought I was stupid and wouldn’t remember what had just taken place.
Then I saw the MSM due all their sexist nonsense on Hillary, say she was pimping her daughter, say hearing her voice made them (males) cross their legs.
I saw Amy Goodman turn her program over to Barack. I saw her bring on people who endorsed Barack and her not tell the audience that they’d endorsed Barack.
I saw her bring on Melissa Harris Lacewell who was campaigning for Barack and Amy and Lacewell refused to tell the audience that. Just presented her as a disinterested bystander who happened to see Barack give a speech.
Then I saw Gloria Steinem attacked days later on Democracy Now, the episode where Lacewell suddenly is informing the audience that she’s part of the campaign.
I saw The Nation and The Progressive trash Hillary over and over. The only one who ever called out the trashing was Katha Pollitt.
I listened to CounterSpin give their media critique week after week. How many times did they call out the sexism? Once and only once. Two Fridays ago, they did one sentence on Hillary being called a bitch in a long thing about Barack being treated unfairly.
I saw Keith Olbermann scream and yell and say Hillary needed to be taken into a room by a man and only one leaves the room.
Then I saw my party, the Green party, offer all this praise to Barack. As if we didn’t have our own candidate. And I saw them smear and slime Hillary.
It wasn’t just men who attacked Hillary. It wasn’t just the MSM that attacked her.
And this has just been a very heart ripping apart time for me. I loved all the comments and feel like I learned so much from reading all of them.
I’m sorry to the woman who stood up for a band and got pushed aside for doing that. I’m sorry I obviously didn’t pay attention to the world around me because I don’t believe all the sexism going on just emerged in January.
I’m sorry to all women and for all women that in 2008 we’re called ‘ball breakers’ and they sell Hillary ‘nutcrackers’ at the MSNBC shops in airports.
I’m sorry to the women who came before me and worked so hard. You all did a great job. Such a great job that it was easy for me to ignore what the world was still like.
I just want to cry honestly because I never realized how much we were hated. I knew some men did, that they hated us. But I thought that was a small number and I certainly never expected that women would attack other women the way that it all went down.
To everyone who shared here, I’m sorry because I am the problem. I didn’t realize how much sexism was not just alive but so bountiful. I am really sorry.
I was unsuprised Hillary won Puerto Rico. I would’ve been extremely suprised in fact if Puerto Rico had gone to Obama. It only would’ve gone to Obama if a good percentage of Puerto Ricans considered themselves at all balck and many don;t, for social reasons, even if they do have a good amount of black ancestry. Puerto Rico is full of mixed people, but as in most Latino countries, the leaders and elite usually present physically as white (by either ancestry or luck). There’s much internalized hatred against blackness in mixed countries like Puerto Rico, and any really mxed (esp. w/black) country. The blacker you look, in Puerto Rico, the more likely you are to be poorer, less educated, discriminated against, and yadda yadda yadda all the depressing usual. And the converse is true–the whiter you look the more likely you are to be wealthier and more educated and yadda yadda yadda. People (of all colors) are survivalists first and foremost. They will seek to identify w/winners and not losers. That’s what I see in the fact 3 to 1 American Latinos voted Hillary. (Of course some just voted for her because they found her better. That’s a factor but this other thing is at play too.)
The majority of US people of non-black color voted for Hillary in the states. American blacks and whites were the ones who , compared to all other races, gave more of their votes to Obama. Whites because they are out of the race loop (nothing to lose) and blacks because in America people are black identified and can’t get out of it if they look at all black, and so for the most part, if they have a good amount of black ancestry , they have something to gain. Prestige and psychological gain for people who look like them .
Non-black people of color aren’t white per se but they aren’t black and would rather not be lumped in with black, which they clearly see are the most “othered” of all the races. It’s not good for your already not-white chances to identify w/black. It’s easier for whites to identify w/blacks b/c there’s no question about things if you’re white-you’re already valued and your proof is in your everyday pudding.
Additionally I read in the standard news (CNN or some such) that it was b/c people knew little of Obama there and much of Hillary.
It’s so funny b/c this is reflected on a global scale (what I just mentioned) –you see it in any mixed race country such as S. America, Egypt.
Any nation where black is mixed into the general populace, black is bottom of the barrel.
At the after school place I worked I saw this on a micro level–four girls all between 8 and 10 –two black, one white, one half Persian and half S. American, were doing an Obama cheer they made up.
After the cheer one of the black girls asked in this “as if” way “who likes Hillary?” The white girl got a pained expression on her face, but didn’t say anyything, and so I said “alot of people, and I think it’s be awesome to have a woman president, and also awesome to have a black president”. To that the Middle Eastern/S.American girl insisted loudly, “he’s not black!” The black girls were like, “He’s not??” I said he was mixed, and they were like “really? Hm, whatever.”
This whole exchange was sooo sterotyped but it happened!
The angst of the white girl, the rah rah Obama of the black girls (and the fact they didn’t know he was mixed), and the definite knowledge the brown girl had that Obama was actually half white and not “just” black.
I was so stereotypical as to make me literally laugh, and also feel depressed, as it did reflect alot about what our whole national discussion has been–about inclusion, identitification, race, gender …ugh.
Everybody wants a little piece of the pie, we can’t help it. None of us can.
Wow, what great comments, Jeyoani and Deidra! Hey, Deidra, no need to apologize, we all, as women, face up to the truth of misogyny in our own time and way. I resisted facing up to this for decades, basically until I couldn’t suspend my disbelief anymore.
Don’t even get me started on the treatment of Cynthia McKinney! She has been one of my heroes for such a long time and your analysis of the way she was treated is spot on.
If it’s any consolation, I just want to cry this morning, too. I did cry all day yesterday, basically, until the evening when a couple of my grown kids came over and got me thinking and talking and out of my overall morbidity. Most of my sadness had to do with personal things but some definitely had to do with the Democratic campaigns, not so much the candidates themselves but what the campaigns have revealed about people and institutions and sexism and racism. I look at Obama and I can’t help but feel happy for him and for all black people in the United States, for the reasons Jeyoani has set forth so well. Then again, why couldn’t it be Cynthia MacKinney? I look at the potential running mates and they’re all white men save Clinton and two white women (governors of Arizona and somewhere else, I forget) who have no chance, basically. So after I’m done being happy about this historic moment when we have a viable black candidate for President of the United States, I switch over to being heartbroken because we don’t have a woman candidate– white or black or brown, no women allowed, it’s a boys’ club through and through. When I consider the misogyny of the campaigns and the general public across the board, whatever the politics, it’s like more than I can bear, it breaks my heart, I can’t really deal with it.
Misogyny isn’t “still” out there – it never diminished to any extent ever, and has been increasing exponentially with time.
Whoa. There’s a “heterosexual deduction”? I really must get myself an accountant – I had no idea!
:p
Deidra, I had thought nothing about the perfidy of the left and Green Party could surprise me, but some of your observations did. Greens are praising Obama? For what? Are they planning to revive the safe state strategy that made them an irrelevant footnote in 2004?
I posted on my blog in January about a glaring omission in the California Green Party Statement of Purpose, namely any specific mention of rights for women. California has a large chunk of the Greens registered nationally, so I considered this significant for a party professing feminism as a key value. So, their preference for Nader over McKinney is par for the course.
I was also surprised about Counterspin. I have not heard the radio show in years, but I subscribe to the FAIR newsletter Extra. In the latest issue, there is a story called Misogyny’s Greatest Hits: Sexism in Hillary Clinton coverage,
by Jessica Wakeman. The story is not available online. At the end Ms. Wakeman observes, it is hard to top supposedly progressive talk show host Randi Rhodes calling Geraldine Ferraro and Hillary Clinton big f**ing whores. I should note, there is a complicated backstory to that, but Ms. Rhodes seems to take the attitude that sexism has had nothing to do with this campaign, recently citing of all people Camille Paglia, who wrote an article Hillary Clinton’s candidacy has done feminism no favours. While I agree with that premise, I think Ms. Paglia came to that conclusion for all the wrong reasons.
Ms. Paglia, Ms. Rhodes, and many other Obama supporters seem to have strange abilities to deny sexism staring them in the face. But then, Ms. Rhodes cannot see the harm in pornography or granting an interview to Larry Flynt. She calls on disgruntled Clinton supporters to fall in line. I call on them to abandon the Democratic Party and join the feminist revolution.
Off topic here,
Heart I can’t remember where in the hell I posted on the whole War experiment–in that the war wasn’t just about oil,
but about experimenting with special ops/urban warfare–maybe it wasn’t even here I posted it,
but, Oh, hell, I mean, I’m reeling right now…because I’ve suspected–AND BY DAMN,
ITS HAPPENING…
I know I’ve mentioned somewhere on here about the whole elitist ‘psyops’ of this entire election [I stand firm that this whole thing about change is just bogus capitalist b.s. to dupe the masses for even a further extension into a nationalist cover for a more dangerous police state/fascism],
and I know I’ve brought in some of the things going on with the ReCreate 68 and the Terrorist, State Terrorism being planned against Americans here soon,
not sure if it was here or somewhere else that I wrote about the War being also a social war experiment in using special ops weapons/Urban warfare, to be used, here, rather than in other countries that are by FAR, rural, not urban,
well, DAMN SURE WAS RIGHT—here you go America,
hate to say, Told you so…
just came in via IWW news
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080528/LOCAL18/805280444
Marines bringing combat training to Indy
By Vic Ryckaert
Posted: May 28, 2008
U.S. Marine helicopters will land at the old Eastgate Consumer Mall, Brookside Park and other Indianapolis locations when the city becomes a mock battlefield next week.
About 2,300 Marines from the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, based at Camp Lejeune, N.C., will conduct urban warfare training from Wednesday through June 19 in and around Indianapolis.
Most of the troops will be deployed at the Indiana State Fairgrounds and the Raytheon facility on Holt Road, said Debbi Fletcher of the Indianapolis/Marion County Emergency Management Agency.
“We don’t want anyone thinking that there’s an invasion happening or that we declared martial law or something like that,” Fletcher said.
The Marines have been cleared by state, federal and local authorities, Fletcher said. The unit’s commander promised to try to keep noise to a minimum and give neighbors plenty of warning.
“Our aim in Indianapolis is to expose our Marines to realistic scenarios and stresses posed by operating in an actual urban community, thereby increasing their proficiency in built-up areas,” Col. Mark J. Desens, commander of the 26th MEU, said in a statement. “While some of the activity will take place around Camp Atterbury, residents in many areas can expect to see helicopters flying overhead, military vehicles on the roads and Marines patrolling on foot,” Desens said.
The Marines will practice firing weapons, conducting patrols, running vehicle checkpoints, reacting to ambushes and employing nonlethal weapons, according to a statement.
In addition to Eastgate and Brookside Park, Indianapolis offered the Marines 24 other training sites, including Raymond Park Middle School, Ellenberger Park, Christian Park, Southeastway Park, the old Bush Stadium and Douglass Park.
However, not all cities are so open to the training. In February, after first canceling scheduled training, Toledo (Ohio) Mayor Carty Finkbeiner invited the Marines to train in the city, but outside the downtown area.
The Associated Press contributed to this story.
Call Star reporter Vic Ryckaert at (317) 444-2761.
This is hard thread to get through because it is so rich and so honest.
Like many, I wasn’t supporting Hillary. The Democratic Party has betrayed too many times. But I was hoping she would be treated with some level of equality.
It was so ghastly to see what happened.
Aletha, I agree with what C.I. wrote about the Extra! article last week http://thecommonills.blogspot.com/2008/05/i-hate-war_29.html
I’ll summarize her. It’s a bad article. C.I. points out that not only did FAIR refuse to call out the sexism hurled at Katie Couric, they contributed to it and used “ratings” as a media critique at one point on CounterSpin. The article gives you the usual suspects for example Tucker Carlson.
No one was more vile on MSNBC than Keith Olbermann but they refuse to call him out for his sexism and FAIR, Extra! and CounterSpin have all quoted him throughout the year.
Quoted him kindly.
I don’t know if you’re aware of C.I. (The Common Ills) but she also works with The Third Estate Sunday Review and I remember a piece they did there in 2006. FAIR was calling out the NewsHour for having something like 1 woman guest for every 3 men. The article Third did pointed out that is disgusting but has anyone bothered to check how many women are brought on CounterSpin? Third took the same weeks studied for NewsHour by FAIR and found out FAIR’s CounterSpin offered even less women.
And of course C.I. and Ava steered the 2007 study on The Nation and, at the end, found that our ‘progressive’ friends at The Nation, run by women as The Nation insisted in an e-mail to C.I., thought “progressive” was publishing 491 male bylines and only 149 female ones. They left comics out of the mix because they were added in the second half of the year but Ava and C.I. pointed out all the comics in 2007 were credited to men and that the figures were even worse if you included the comics. There were entire issues of The Nation in 2007 when no woman had a byline. There were other issues that if Katha Pollitt hadn’t had a column, there wouldn’t have been a single woman in the issue.
They tracked that pretty much weekly in real time and at the end of the first six months did their first article which was called “Are You A Writer For The Nation? If so, chances are you must have a penis” http://thecommonills.blogspot.com/2007/07/are-you-writer-for-nation-if-so-chances.html
and I loved the opening:
“The 2007 year for The Nation was kicked off at the end of December with a January 1, 2007 issue. The cover pictured Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson. For reasons still unclear, except a possible deficiency that makes anything beyond the obvious impossible, the fifty-five-year-old, be speckled, John Denver-like mayor was depicted shirtless, sporting chest hair, flashing his manly pits at the readers, while both arms were thrown straight in the air and, did we mention, his hands were clad in boxing gloves.
For those who missed the obvious, Rocky Anderson was portrayed as Rocky because, after all, what’s lefter than Sylvester Stallone? The Nation, intentionally or not, was telegraphing to one and all that they could ‘cowboy up’ as well as any Bully Boy in the White House. Any who couldn’t grasp the non-subtle point had only turn to page 25.”
What was on page 25? They explain The Nation published a book of three books on Afghanistan by a pig who smeared two women (Sarah Chayes and Ann Jones) and praised a lighthearted look at Afghanistan by a man. Not only were the women smeared, they were smeared in sexist terms as emotional, etc. And guess how the pig opened his alleged book review? Talking about his trip to a bordello.
I really have been appalled at what I’ve seen from independent media like FAIR, The Nation and so much more. Here’s the link for Third’s year long study of The Nation in 2007
http://thirdestatesundayreview.blogspot.com/2007/12/nation-featured-491-male-bylines-in.html
Joint tax filing of heterosexually married people qualify for deductions. Inheritance laws give heterosexually married people an exclusion on the profits of an inherited house upon the death of a partner automatically. The tax code does everything in its power to give heterosexually married people advantages.
On a local note: I pay school taxes that support children in families that hate lesbians and gays. Do I want my tax dollars supporting heterosexuals at the disadvantage of lesbians and gay people? No. I want a refund! So it’s not a joke.
Things are really getting comic. Driving home listening to the local NPR shows, a group of men agreed that sexism was not a factor in Hillary Clinton’s defeat. Imagine that? Men actually knowing what sexism actually is.
Men are sexists plain and simple. Always have been always will be. They may deny this, but it’s only because they have no idea of how sexism works on a daily basis. It’s why men deny they are sexist or homophobic even as they spew these doctrines on right wing radio.
The few times sexism was brought up vis-a-vis Hillary Clinton on Anderson Cooper (for example) the men didn’t know what to say, but the women had a lot to say.
White men will talk about racism, but they avoid real discussions on the news of sexism, and women are still not allowed full reign on TV news programs to let it out there.
Perhaps Hillary Clinton’s biggest mistake was not to be bold in talking about gender and how women can get out and change it all. Obama was forced to give a big race speech, but Hillary was never forced to talk about the legacy of sexism and womanhatred in politics. Hmmm.
I watched in horror at the misogyny aimed squarely at Hillary Clinton so clearly visible the last few months. She stood with grace and dignity despite the hatred swirling towards her. It made me proud that a woman would have the strength to endure it.
I believe the one good outcome of this whole sad ordeal is that many women (including myself) see the misogyny thriving in our midst. I thought we were beyond it. I won’t make that mistake again. While I was once asleep, I am now awake.
I pay school taxes that support children in families that hate lesbians and gays. Do I want my tax dollars supporting heterosexuals at the disadvantage of lesbians and gay people? No. I want a refund! So it’s not a joke.
No, Satsuma, it is a joke. It’s got to be a joke to continue time after time to use deliberately wrong terminology – words that imply that heterosexual women benefit from the patriarchal constraints put upon their lives.
Heterosexual women don’t get any kind of financial advantage or tax break by being who they are. However, they (like lesbians) are incentivized and coerced into *cooperating with the state and marrying a man.* This is patriarchy, discrimination against women – lesbian and heterosexual and everything in between. Not a “heterosexual tax break.”
As a partnered heterosexual woman resisting marriage (and well aware that it takes active, very active, resistance to do so – all the more so when one is in financial straits) for this exact reason, let me assure you that I am perfectly aware of the thousands of exclusive benefits conferred by legal marriage. These benefits should belong to you and to me because we are PEOPLE, and not because we are in a particular relationship, lesbian or hetero. Single women, lifelong spinsters? They should get to designate their next of kin, not be financially penalized, choose who visits them in the hospital. Because they’re actual living breathing human beings capable of managing and defining their relationships. Instead, the government imposes a family structure blueprint upon all of us – one that is especially harmful to women – one that has never worked out well for the majority of women in human history…and treats all those who refuse to cooperate with it as suitable for the discard pile.
In other words, I’m perfectly aware how demeaning it is to be told by everyone that if I just conform to who the state wants me to be rather than who I am, my life will be simpler in every way.
Ask an unmarried heterosexual woman with kids applying for state assistance how much her heterosexual rebate was; listen long enough and I’ll bet she’ll tell you about how her government wants her to get married, too.
Her taxes, mine, and yours all work against us, propping up the system that beats us up. I get it. It’s infuriating.
It doesn’t excuse blaming women, which is what your inspecific comments about “heterosexuals” (not “heteronormativity,” not “heterosexual institutions,” not “marriage,” not “patriarchy,” not “men,” but HETEROSEXUALS) do, over and over. And then some. While ignoring the reality lived by most women in the world – running down their lives, tied up with men and with children, as blind and self-destructive and the cause of poverty and all of their other problems, at the same time that you gripe about the financial advantage they supposedly have over you.
And, now you’ve expanded your target, once again, to children.
All I know is: getting mad and taking it out on women and children isn’t feminism. It isn’t lesbian radicalism. It isn’t ever woman-positive.
That’s what your language does. You may not mean it to, I don’t know. Sometimes your contempt is palpable, and I think you very much do. But most of the time, it just comes across as careless writing.
Except that you’ve been told. And you choose to stay with the careless, woman-blaming language. Which really says something about what you consider important. It says you simply can’t be bothered to care whether or not you’re putting patriarchy on the shoulders of women, and setting women up as your enemy.
Most days, I ignore it. Some days I decide to just take it as a joke. Today’s a day where I feel like saying something in view of the other women reading here.
Thanks Oceancitygirl for your words. How women have been so alseep for so long is beyond me.
Women tend to think of things personally. If their husband or boyfriend is ok, they miss the big picture of womanhatred that is built into the very fabric of patriarchy.
Patriarchy is that system of rule of the fathers that has been in place for about 5000 years. What happened to Hillary Clinton, in the blatant sexism and hatred directed at her AS A WOMAN, is the true face of patriarchy, that often hides itself.
Women are conned into believing things have changed, when they haven’t at all.
We have a lot of work to do to use this wake up call of the Clinton campaign to go further. As the majority of people in this country, once women are awake, things could change overnight. But first women really do have to wake up and take action.
Thanks for writing what you wrote. I find it encouraging that women are now seeing the virulent womanhatred that has never left, only hidden itself in sheep’s clothing!
I think many of us will spend this time reflecting on what could have been with this election.
Although I am ever the passionate campaigner for Hillary, and have truly admired her courage and heroic nature, I know we haven’t figured all of this out as women.
I’d like to thank all the women here who wrote so passionately about her campaign. I know it’s been years since I’ve read so many women with such determination, intelligence and plain old brilliance, and this site gives me hope. There are hundreds of women who have the intelligence and passion to write politically! Not all women in this country even come close to having the kind of free speech we have here, and this is a space of women’s free speech.
Thanks Heart for running such a fair enterprise, so that all women feel heard, and also for your excellent work in knowing what to publish and what not to publish.
As radical feminists (I speak for myself only), I have a very determined nature, so it’s nice to have a good moderator, so we don’t all go too overboard.
Every time Tucker Carlson or O’Reilly or Brit Hume would say something awful and sexist, I knew that we had each other. This was a delightful counterpoint to male-stream news, that used to control so much of the world. Now it doesn’t, we have women’s free speech here!
I encourage all women to see this campaign as a patriarchy wake up call. For younger women who think “that was the past” guess again. We’ve only just begun, yet again!
Funnie, I’m not kidding when I talk about heterosexual privilege and the women who aid and abet this. Right now, we have a major attack going on in California, with hetero women weighing in with contempt for lesbians and gay men.
There is a tax advantage to heterosexuality, and you may not know it, but I sure as heck do because I get to see ALL the tax advantages. I see them daily in my work, I see the advantages of this, and what groups get supported all the time. Women are indeed benefiting from this, and perhaps they often don’t see it. But it’s there and it’s real and it is outrageous. Since the economic commentary here is pretty thin, I suppose I should cut some slack.
But really, women do indeed choose those systems, just as they willingly sacrifice quite a bit to maintain the hetero normative system. If they didn’t see a clear advantage in doing this, they’d be outta there as they say in Jersey.
Don’t kill the lesbian messenger, I just call it as I see it! I see the poverty women get into because they “choose ” the losing horse in the marriage race. It doesn’t occur to them that just giving up economic power to men in marriage pretty much is a set up to begin with.
Heck, Suze Orman has to get on national T.V. to tell women to open savings accounts in their own name! Savings accounts for goddess sake!
The tax code is a complex structure, one I study a lot. Get to know the tax code, get to know the insurance industry, and you’ll see the difference between the services lesbians get vs. the heterosexual advantage that is so deeply ingrained in every ounce of space in this land, that women think it is a flower instead of a rattlesnake (and hey a rattlesnake isn’t as mean
I don’t know why pointing this out is so outlandish in a radical lesbian feminist context. What are hetero families sacrosanct?
The thing is, there should be complete freedom to designate survivor benefits and that the individual has the right to choose this, not the government. BUT, I never see this talked about here, which is why I bring it up.
Now if women woke up and looked this economic reality square in the eye instead of depending on men to foot the bill, it would really be different. But women want men to pay, and they are perfectly willing to do what it takes to make this happen. Right now, divorce is actually being blamed on gay men and lesbians. That’s right, heterosexual families that go wrong are now being blamed on us! This amazes me, but it’s out there. I don’t hear heterowomen outraged over this, I don’t hear it or see it.
So get to work, take a look at the tax code, take a lot at income tax forms and the entire social security system. Take a look at medical policy and the forms and see what the default positions always are on those forms. The next time you fill in a government form, take a look — lesbians need not apply, because we aren’t listed! That is heterosexual privilege which benefits the heterosexual women AND the heterosexual men. Women are half the population, not a minor minority, but half the population. If they wanted this to change it would, but I believe most are perfectly willing to go along with it, and that, as they say, is what often makes me BOILING mad!
The thing is, there should be complete freedom to designate survivor benefits and that the individual has the right to choose this, not the government. BUT, I never see this talked about here, which is why I bring it up.
There is a tax advantage to heterosexuality
Get to know the tax code, get to know the insurance industry, and you’ll see the difference between the services lesbians get vs. the heterosexual advantage
Since the economic commentary here is pretty thin, I suppose I should cut some slack.
No. This stops here. You do not get to ignore every point I made while overtly plagiarizing me, repeating your offensively crafted (and entirely incorrect) statements about “heterosexual” benefits, and patronizing me.
What a steaming pile. As they say in Jersey, I’m outta here.
First, though, since “plagiarize” is a strong word, let me just make this entirely clear.
I said:
I am perfectly aware of the thousands of exclusive benefits conferred by legal marriage. These benefits should belong to you and to me because we are PEOPLE, and not because we are in a particular relationship, lesbian or hetero. Single women, lifelong spinsters? They should get to designate their next of kin, not be financially penalized, choose who visits them in the hospital. Because they’re actual living breathing human beings capable of managing and defining their relationships. Instead, the government imposes a family structure blueprint upon all of us…
Satsuma replied:
The thing is, there should be complete freedom to designate survivor benefits and that the individual has the right to choose this, not the government. BUT, I never see this talked about here, which is why I bring it up.
Had you simply reiterated the same point it would be one thing, Satsuma. But adding that it’s “never” talked about here and that *you* brought it up is just ludicrous.
And dishonest.
Satsuma, religious fanatics have always made noise about gays and lesbians being the cause of social ills, even blaming them for Katrina and 9/11. I do not believe they speak for the majority of heterosexual women, not even close. I know your fondness for polemic and hyperbole, but must you paint with such a broad brush?
The thing is Aletha, I don’t hear straight women come on to those talk radio programs to challenge the homophobia in a public way. In fact, they are largely silent in public spaces. I don’t hear this in public discourse. And I do mean that literally, which is why I think straight women largely don’t give a damn about these issues.
Now if I heard this on CNN, or I heard women challenge the right wing radio programs, then I’d be a little bit more pursuaded.
But, hey, when you have something as blatant as front page news in CA, and then complete silence as you move throughout society, that says something. Blogs re one thing, but I’m talking about what straight women say IN PUBLIC within my hearing distance. So either, they really are out of it, and not up on the issues, or they are secret homophobes who just say nothing (the usual approach straight women use because of their fear of verbal conflict), or there must be some other explanation.
It’s why I think there is a lot to be suspicious of vis-a-vis straight people’s incredible sense of entitlement to so much of the tax structure, family structure and marriage structure.
So until I hear this so-called majority of straight women actually engaging this topic in the public sphere, I’m not going to believe it! This is not hyperbole, this is fact, this is what I hear in the various groups I’m a part of. It’s the real live homophobia that is as natural to straight women as a duck in water. That, in my opinion IS the vast majority of straight women out there. If you leave the state of CA it gets worse.
So let’s just keep it real, and don’t get so rattled when I point this out! It’s about the same issue straight women face in dealing with straight leftist men who are almost as far away from feminism as Bubba Right Winger.
And Funnie, yes, we don’t agree. Again, when I call them as I see them, you all seem to have a problem with this. It’s the same thing you face when dealing with leftist straight men. The tax code is a very real tool of heterosexual entitlement, and you don’t know this, because you don’t have to file taxes every year the way I do! You don’t know, because you aren’t involved with this. You’ll just get mad when I say this, but you know it’s true.
I’m on the verge of advocating that marriage be abolished as a status / or tax status completely for everyone. Let every person file as single, and have no tax advantages for anything, other than standard deductions for everyone. That would be a possible answer. Take a look at the inheritance laws and the tax code vis-a-vie what happened when the surviving partner is listed on the title to a home. There is a marital deduction for straight couples, there is virtually no such deduction for lesbian or gay couples or non-married straight couples. You can get around this through the use of trusts, but for straight married couples IT IS AUTOMATIC.
This is one example out of hundreds, but it should be the most commonly know tax inequality out there. If you were smart enough to buy property in 1994 and it increased in value by say 50%, and your hetero-married partner died, you would not be taxed on the gain. This is fact! Now really folks, I have seen no mention of this on this blog. It may be in a thread before I started posting, but truly, I have nothing about this anywhere here. This is what I’m talking about. You can get mad all you want, but it is not hyperbole to point this out, it is fact!
Women, you need to get a little more down and dirty about the economics here. It’s weird to see no numbers, no there there as old Gertrude used to say. Straight women do have great privilege, I know it, you know it. Now they pay a price for this, which thank the goddess I don’t have to deal with. You are more trapped and bound by social conventions and family relationships, but you should not stay so out of it on this tax code stuff. It reminds me of all the women out there who are always in it for a hand out: they want men to buy them drinks, the husbands to manage the money, and the status quo on straight hegemony to go unchallenged. Prove me wrong some day!
you don’t know this, because you don’t have to file taxes every year the way I do! You don’t know, because you aren’t involved with this. You’ll just get mad when I say this, but you know it’s true.
Women, you need to get a little more down and dirty about the economics here.
you should not stay so out of it on this tax code stuff. It reminds me of all the women out there who are always in it for a hand out: they want men to buy them drinks, the husbands to manage the money, and the status quo on straight hegemony to go unchallenged.
I don’t understand why I’d ever listen to a lecture about what I “need to” do from a woman-blamer who tells untruths about me.
If you stuck to actually discussing the issues you perceive as missing with intelligence and specificity (rather than issuing entirely baseless proclamations to feminist women about how they don’t know or support what you do, and how heterosexual *women* are the cause of all of it), you might find yourself faced with more agreement.
But then, agreement might spoil your self-styling as a revival-tent preacher.
Never thought of myself as a revival tent person, but the idea sure made me laugh. I’m strictly a big city urban lesbian, not a country mouse. One should never throw pearls of tax wisdom before swine I guess.
Don’t waste time on the details, right?
On another topic, the Obama people are all reveved up emailing me to get money. Hmm, barely had time to bury the dead. On the list of Obama’s issue menu that you can click on, there is no mention of women’s issues at all. And we don’t even have our full humanity represented in the word “lesbian.” We’re listed as LGBT on this issue menu. Then women get further degraded with the term “reproductive issues.”
The word “woman” is not listed at all. Imagine the term “global warming” but no “women.” You can tell a lot by looking at the list folks. I heard on the news that suddenly Obama is hiring all these women to work at higher levels on his campaign. Where were they before Hillary withdrew? All working for Hillary? Wonder if he’s paying them more than minumum wage? Oh the pain of this loss, so close but so far….
Don’t know if I’m reading too much into this or not, but take a look at all the women who show up for Hillary’s events. If you examine photos from any presidential era, it’s almost all men in the audiences. Hillary changed the very demographic of women coming out on the street, and being out in the world. This was consistent throughout her campaign. Perhaps they simply felt safer than at the usual male dominated political rallies. Think anti-Vietnam war rallies, men for miles around. Just thinking out loud here.
I’m not about reproduction, and I can see that Obama really hasn’t a clue about feminism either. Or as several of my friends said recently, “It’s just two guys running for president, the same as always.” Indeed.
On the list of Obama’s issue menu that you can click on, there is no mention of women’s issues at all.
Imagine the term “global warming” but no “women.” You can tell a lot by looking at the list folks.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/womenissues
Accessed from “Obama’s issue menu” on his main site.
“Women” are listed as an “issue.” “Global warming” is not.
Further, women are mentioned in the civil rights section. Though Obama is wrong on marriage and family overall, some of his “family”-strengthening initiatives are also not marriage-promotion or other sex-relationship-based benefits, but rather relationship-blind economic benefits (universal mortgage deduction, EITC expansion).
I accessed the list of issues from an email I received from Obama’s campaign directly, and global warming was indeed mentioned. He was asking what issues were important to me. The Obama campaign is clever in designing website that try to get as much information up front as possible. On this email list there was no “women’s issues” listed as a heading, and that’s where I got this information. I thought it telling, since this email list must have come from the Clinton campaign somehow. I never gave Obama my email address ever.
It is quite possible that on his non-email site, he actually lists “women.” But hey, global warming… perhaps if men stop talking worldwide, the global will cease to be warmed with their hot air!
Obama rather tactlessly decided that it’s time to try to get Hillary supports to donate money to his campaign. I’d never give a bloody dime to any man ever, much less a straight man! Geez, what’s the world coming to!
Ah, thanks for explaining.