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Pre-2008 Posts

Don’t Shut Me Up

Grieving women 

Don’t trivialize my hatred of pornography.

Don’t mock or laugh at or dismiss my hatred of blow jobs.

Don’t trivialize my rage against — and yes, hatred of — men who violate little girls and little boys and women, my daughters, my sons, my mother, my sisters, myself, with and by these these things.

And do not make me wrong.  On other days, I’ll talk about other things.  I may even talk about all the ways that patriarchy hurts men, too, because it does.  But don’t tell me patriarchy-hurts-men-too is what I ought to be talking about today, thinking about today, when blow jobs and rape and pornography are on my mind, when they are what I want to talk about, after days and months and years and decades and centuries of  nightmares and screaming and still, fearful, deadly silences.  Don’t tell me other violences matter more.  Don’t tell me other voices matter more.  Don’t tell me other people matter more than me.

Don’t shut me up. 

If you haven’t had cock shoved down your throat until you gagged and vomited and bled and could not breathe, with “bitch” and “cunt” and “whore” ringing in your ears, then maybe you don’t understand.

If you haven’t been forced, under threat of beatings with fists and belts and sticks and hoses and hangers to arrange your body like the porn star in the movie arranges hers so a man can fuck you like the men in pornography fuck her, and every day and every night there’s a new threat and a new film and a new position and maybe a new beating, then maybe you don’t understand.

If men have not raped you, raped your daughters, raped your sons, raped your mother, your sister, your friends, and so that valley of desperation and grief and rage and wanting to die is unfamiliar territory, then maybe you don’t see men quite the way I see them.

I won’t ask you to.  No woman should be expected, or asked, or ordered, or even begged, to enter into that hell.  It’s been forced upon us, forced upon us, enough of us, thousands and millions and billions of us throughout history.  Thank god, some have been spared.  Thank god, you have been spared.

I won’t ask you to go there with me.  You don’t have to hold my hand.  You don’t have to hold me. 

But I’ll say this.  Don’t trivialize what broke me.  Don’t call my suffering trifling.  Don’t chide me for my rage.  Don’t say it’s no big deal or others have it worse or think about my privilege or what’s wrong with you, all the evil in the world, damn ungrateful bitch talkin’ about blow jobs, what the hell is wrong with her. 

That’s what he said to me.  That’s what men say to us.  That’s what they have always said to us while they choked us with cock or beat us with fists or seared our minds and bodies and spirits and souls with images and acts we can never, ever forget no matter how hard we try, dear god, no matter what we do to make it stop, no matter how much we drink, or what part we cut or pierce or tattoo, or how well we starve or eat ourselves into invisibility, or what god or goddess we pray to, or work for, no matter the drugs, the pills, weed, it’s there, it’s there, god help us it’s still there, it never ends, it never ends.  They told us we should be glad we had a man/a father/a house/food, what’s wrong with you, bitch, it’s just a picture, it’s just a weapon, it’s just a cock, stupid slut. You’ve got it good, you whore.  You’ve got it good. 

That’s what men say to us.

Don’t you say it.  Don’t you say it.

Don’t tell me not to grieve.  Don’t tell me not to rage.  Don’t tell me not to scream.   Don’t tell me what to feel or think, or how to go about mending my world, saving my own life. 

Heart

Discussion

40 thoughts on “Don’t Shut Me Up

  1. Heart, I love and respect and admire your compassion AND your rage. I also have no fear of you ever shutting up! 🙂

    Posted by Edith | June 26, 2006, 8:41 pm
  2. Sweet jesus, I love you, woman. But you knew that already.🙂

    (Are you able to come tonight, btw? Still happy to stock the wood stove so you can have a lovely, toasty sleep if need be.)

    Posted by Heather | June 26, 2006, 8:45 pm
  3. Hi Heart,
    This is stunning.
    Thank you for writing this. This post leaves me close to speechless and feeling that I am not the only one demanding a right to my rage.
    Thank you,
    Yawning Lion

    Posted by Yawning Lion | June 26, 2006, 9:00 pm
  4. yes, thank you. this is awesome. your writing rocks!

    yes yes yes to all you said

    Posted by Cinder | June 26, 2006, 9:23 pm
  5. Oh, Heart… powerful writing. I so admire those women who can put things into words the way I never could. You’re one of them.

    JJ

    Posted by JJ | June 26, 2006, 11:03 pm
  6. i really appreciate this piece.

    heart im sorry to gatecrash this thread but do you have any way of contacting juliette of feminista? the boards there have been covered in pornography and porn spam, i’ve left warning messages for other visitors but i cant reach juliette, neither of the email addresses on the magazine work. i have pmd here but she needs to get to the board or ask a friend to get to the board and take this stuff down.

    again im sorry for doing this here.

    Posted by v | June 27, 2006, 1:24 am
  7. This is so important, you know women are suffering everywhere, and I hate this thing where some people want to deny great swathes of that suffering because they don’t deem it to be bad enough.

    All of us are making our way through this world the best we can, and we find ourselves living under a range of circumstances and conditions, and face different difficulties. The world is not perfect for anyone.

    Of course it is important to be aware and to have context, the big picture, but women should not and cannot be expected to take on every other womans burden, particularly not as demanded by others. We would all end up crushed and useless if we tried to do this.

    If something is my suffering and it is similar to yours, then thats OK, we share that. If our suffering is different then that’s OK too, and we can still be allies – there will still be much common ground. We can all speak out. But we cannot demand that our own anger alone must be exalted and other women’s anger must be castigated and hated and silenced.

    Posted by anon99 | June 27, 2006, 9:17 am
  8. just to say feministas been sorted out now, panic over.

    and again im sorry for gatecrashing your thread, and i thought this was a really powerful piece.

    Posted by v | June 27, 2006, 4:10 pm
  9. Thank you women for all your comments, and V, I’m glad you got hold of Juliette at Feminista. char wrote something I really, really appreciated elsewhere on the internet last week. She said (paraphrased and my version) that she didn’t want anybody to fight her battles for her, she wanted each woman to fight her own battles, and the more all of us as women fight our own battles, the greater the benefit to all of us.

    It’s so tempting to make another woman’s political priorities wrong, you know? To minimize them. But it just struck me so much that that is what men do to us– they tell us how good we have it and why the hell are we complaining about assaulted/battered/emotionally or verbally or spiritually abused/raped/whatever, we should stop being so negative and ungrateful. That’s how abuse victims are always silenced, by their abusers, by a surrounding culture. I just don’t think feminists should ever do it to feminists! Like you say, YL, we have a right to our rage, I’d go a step further and say we have a duty to it!

    Heather, I suck so bad, I have to get my car issues solved before I can do anything. :/ But thanks for the sweet offer, although I doubt I’d have needed wood in the woodstove!

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 27, 2006, 5:38 pm
  10. I just came from the post that I think inspired this one. Thank you for writing this.

    (((big hug)))

    Posted by spotted elephant | June 27, 2006, 7:21 pm
  11. don’t assume that someone who does not share your opinion on certain controversial matters has not been similarly brutalized.

    Posted by antiprincess | June 28, 2006, 6:27 pm
  12. Heart, it is unfair that terrible things have been put upon you by society. But I was raped by another woman and I am a lesbian. I still have sex. I do not wage war against womens or lesbians or sex.

    You have reacted as you thought you were supposed to: destroy, remove from the world. I have not. I have nurtured the things that were broken. I have loved. I have held someone near to me and felt her touch me and not been afraid. You cannot reach that point from where you are, I think. You will spend your life destroying what is not objectively bad; rape is objectively bad, but sex is not.

    It is strange because I am a combative, terrible, and angry person. But I have moved on. I have tried to help those who have gone through what I have move on as well. Telling a woman that by giving a blowjob, she is raping you all over again, is not constructive. That, I suppose, is the crux of radical feminism.

    Posted by Somethingerine | June 28, 2006, 8:45 pm
  13. just wanted to let you know I tracked back to you, or at least linked to this post.

    Posted by antiprincess | June 29, 2006, 3:10 pm
  14. Don’t tell me not to grieve. Don’t tell me not to rage. Don’t tell me not to scream. Don’t tell me what to feel or think, or how to go about mending my world, saving my own life.

    I don’t recall seeing those sentiments expressed anywhere amid all the “blowjob wars” blog posts of the past week or so. I’d be interested to see some reference links.

    Speaking for myself, I would never intentionally trivialize or invalidate another woman’s experience, no matter how different it is from my own. All I ask from other women is the same respect in return.

    Posted by Amber | June 29, 2006, 4:29 pm
  15. What Amber said.

    Posted by belledame222 | June 29, 2006, 5:53 pm
  16. >I just came from the post that I think inspired this one.

    –okay, now I’m curious as to which post. If there’s something specific then, well, I will revise.

    Posted by belledame222 | June 29, 2006, 5:55 pm
  17. Whoa, somethingerine, there are way way WAY many many assumptions operating there in your comment! I’m not waging war against anyone (although I definitely want patriarchy/white male heterosupremacy to end, but “war” isn’t the kind of language I’d use), I’m not destroying anything and I haven’t removed myself from the world. I’m right here, living my life, as surrounded by and engaged with the world as everybody else is. I love way big, I love way intimately, and I love many, many, beyond all reason, actually, most of the time, I nurture what is broken– in me, in my world. I have been and am regularly touched, and I’m not afraid of touching or of being touched. I’m not interested in destroying sex, although I am interested in ending rape. I am definitely interested in participating in the revisioning and reconstructing of sexual intimacy, what sex is and means– that’s important for feminists to do, I think. Nobody has said that sex is bad. I have not said that sex is bad. I am very, very, very tired of being told that raging against sexual violation, rape and abuse = saying sex is bad or that talking about specific sexual acts, practices, or pornography = saying sex is bad. That, again, is what men say to us. And it is so convenient for them! “Look at that feminist, saying bad things about blow jobs/sm/pornography/whatever, she just needs to get laid/she hates sex/she’s really a messed up person, because if she were not, she’d be like me, all sex all the time. I don’t think any version of the above is anything we ought to be saying to one another. You say you are angry, combative, and terrible. I’m not? I’m kind of peaceable, nurturing and kindly– too much so for my own good at times. At the same time, I don’t feel like this is the time in my life to be pulling any punches. This is the time in my life to be speaking up, as passionately as I possibly can, about what I’ve seen and lived in the world, about what I know and believe and hope. But that doesn’t make me hateful or angry or broken or anything like that. That makes me hopeful and believing and knowing things and passionate.

    As to this:

    Telling a woman that by giving a blowjob, she is raping you all over again, is not constructive. That, I suppose, is the crux of radical feminism.

    Nowhere have I thought, let alone said or written that someone giving a blowjob “rapes” me or anybody else again. That has nothing to do with what radical feminism is about.

    Amber and belledame, although that cutie Spotted Elephant read a post she thought might be the one which called forth mine, my post was not actually responsive to any particular post or comment (although the bj posts and comments got me thinking about what I was thinking about when I wrote that). What we do in bed, particularly with men, isn’t “natural.” It doesn’t come naturally. It’s not what we’re “supposed” to do or what we would do on our own, necessarily. It is constructed in a societal and cultural context in which men are one-up and women are one- down, in which women are and have been, for millennia, subordinated to men. What has happened to us in our beds, therefore, matters. To talk about it, we have to talk about it. Essential to talking about it is the way we are depicted, in, for instance, pornography, is the way we are violated, are the reasons we are violated. Essential to talking about it is talking about the way violence and sex are, for so many men, one and the same thing, the way heterosexuality is overshadowed, for millions and billions of women with experiences of violation. But when we attempt to talk about these things, all hell breaks loose and we end up called haters and anti-sex and all sorts of names, and in short order, we get chided and told we are the equivalent of ungrateful, priveleged bitches who either (1) need to get laid; or (2) should actually go out and DO something instead of sitting around whining all the livelong day about blow jobs (depending on who is chiding us).

    It is really, really disheartening. Sexuality, sexual practices, as they exist in our world, are, again, artifacts of, the inheritance of, white male heterosupremacy. We, meaning women, didn’t get a vote in the way heterosexuality was constructed (and lesbians are every bit as affected by this construction as het women are; lesbians have baggage as well, as you’ve also said, somethingerine). We inherited something as women, ideas, acts, practices, imagery around sexuality which was central to our subordination and subjugation. So we have to look very carefully at that, at what we think sex is supposed to be, at what we think we want to do, at what we think we want done to us. To be told we’re some variety of privileged bitches with too much time on our hands because we want to talk about that is just misogynist to the core. And no, nobody in the blowjob debate has used that specific language. I am speaking out of many years, now, of devoted, committed, woman-centered feminist experience. This is what we are told. This is what men say to us, especially, and especially leftist men, and lots of them think they are progressive and it’s, again, disheartening. But this is also what feminist women too often say, not realizing they are saying precisely what men say and precisely what serves and benefits far and away, men. That’s what I was writing about there. This is nothing new. This isn’t only about the blowjob argument– the blowjob argument is installment #58675867695 of the same discussion feminists have been trying to have for many many decades now. I’ve had this same discussion on the internet with feminists at least since 2000; it’s a discussion that comes around regularly. And that is really valuable, I think. Those discussions with feminists, especially, are what helped me to really rethink sexuality, rethink the mechanisms of male subordination, rethink my own longings, inclinations, ideas about love and intimacy and men and sexuality. So what I wrote there isn’t just about what somebody posted on his or her blog. It comes out of years and tons of feminist work, in real life, out of my real life relationships with feminists and nonfeminists, and from my engaging with feminists and nonfeminists on the internet as well. But I can always count on it that when we attempt to have these discussions, people will pop up to say something like, “Don’t you women have something better to do?” Or, “Why are you trying to censor/regulate/keep me from doing what I want to do?” Or, “Why are you shaming me or making me wrong?” Or, “Why are you hierarchicalizing feminists like that,” Or, “But I *like* to do-whatever-it-is,” Or, “I don’t believe in false consciousness,” or “If you were really a radical feminist you’d be (insert useful accusation here) instead of talking about (whatever thing about sexuality).” Which is again, disheartening. That’s not the point. The point is not to blame or shame women. The point is to get to what is *true* — about men, about women, and about the mechanisms and machinery and ins and outs of women’s subordination to men. If you take a look at what I posted yesterday about consciousness-raising, you will also see that this is nothing new what’s happened here. We attempt to talk about the way women are sexually violated by men, and the way that violation informs our sexuality as women, and men, and, well, all hell breaks loose.

    Well, this is gigantic and long! And enough.

    I really, really don’t want to debate this and will not. I still have my post to write about consciousness-raising vs. debate. Debate of these issues is not helpful. My trying to persuade you and argue with you and all of that? It will not get us anywhere. Which is one reason it’s taken me so long to respond. I really want to leave the debating and attempts to persuade and all of the defensiveness and so on that goes along with that behind. You have offered your thoughts, I have read them, and thought about them. I have offered mine. I’d like to leave things as they are now, for the most part. I’d like to not argue, not debate these things. I think we all know where the other stands, or I would like to hope so.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 29, 2006, 7:02 pm
  18. >that talking about specific sexual acts,

    Talking about; but how talking about them?

    >The point is to get to what is *true*

    But, and this is the bottom line, Heart: *not everyone’s truth is the same.*

    That’s where I think the disconnect is happening, honestly.

    Posted by belledame222 | June 29, 2006, 7:08 pm
  19. And the thing is, I’m totally in sympathy if someone actually told you to shut up; I’m just not seeing that right now. Perhaps if someone had a pointer.

    Posted by belledame222 | June 29, 2006, 7:10 pm
  20. What we do in bed, particularly with men, isn’t “natural.” It doesn’t come naturally.

    How do you mean?

    I understand that sex (like anything else) does not happen in a vaccuum, and is definitely affected by the cultural climate, but… as I mentioned a few days ago, I think it’s time to stop using “natural” or “unnatural” as argumentative points. It prevents us from really getting anywhere.

    Posted by Amber | June 29, 2006, 7:23 pm
  21. Amber, what I meant to say there is that I don’t think we “naturally” or automatically or out of some inner knowing or essential something-or-other or something like that just do certain things, or want to do them, when we’re in bed with men (those of us who have had sex with men). We do what we do for various reasons– because of what we’ve seen, because of what we’ve been taught about ourselves, about men, about men and women, about sex, about desire, because of what we’ve read, because of experiences we’ve had, and so on. ALL of these factors, all of these reasons, are informed by, influenced by, the context we live in, which is a male heterosupremacist context. And so it makes sense to think of the ways all of these things *have* been influenced.

    I wasn’t making any statement about anything being natural or unnatural, other than to say that nothing should be presumed to *be* natural (or unnatural). In other words, I think we agree about that.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 29, 2006, 7:35 pm
  22. belledame: But, and this is the bottom line, Heart: *not everyone’s truth is the same.* That’s where I think the disconnect is happening, honestly.

    belledame, You’re responding to what I said as follows:

    The point is to get to what is *true* — about men, about women, and about the mechanisms and machinery and ins and outs of women’s subordination to men.

    It is these “truths” that I am talking about. I think it is true that women are subjugated/subordinated to men. I think it is true that the world is ordered patriarchally and hierarchically. I think it is true that billions of women and girls have been raped and sexually violated by men, and it is true that it doesn’t work the other way around; millions and billions of boys and men have not been raped and sexually violated by women (though many have been, generally by men). These are the “truths” I am talking about. They’re important truths because if we do not get into the details of how and why these things *are* true, if we don’t agree that they are true in our own lives, then we really have no basis, no platform for activism to change anything. We have to be agreed, at least, as to what we’re fighting for and what we’re fighting if we’re going to fight alongside one another. That essay on consciousness-raising I posted excerpts from yesterday really does do what I’m saying here justice and I hope it gets read, it is really good.

    Where I agree with you is, in the sense that we “make truth” out of our experiences, in the sense that we respond to things differently, see things differently, react differently, heal ourselves or try to heal ourselves differently, yes, there we are very different. But that’s not really the kind of “truth” I was talking about in my long comment. That article I posted yesterday gets into that, too. The “truth” I am talking about is the kind of truth that shapes our realities as women because we *are* women. It is “factish” things I’m talking about, what we are all experiencing, and why, and what flows from what we have experienced.

    And the thing is, I’m totally in sympathy if someone actually told you to shut up; I’m just not seeing that right now. Perhaps if someone had a pointer.

    I think there are an infinite number of ways to attempt to shut a person up– lots and lots of ways. Nobody has to say “shut up” in order to shut a person up. Women have been shut up in certain ways forever by men, and most of the time, those men didn’t have to utter a word. We knew we were supposed to shut up, and we did.  Or didn’t, and paid for it.  Feminism is, in large part, our refusal to BE shut up, and we STILL pay for it, and this latest chapter in the blowjob saga is evidence of that.

    One thing I meant to say and didn’t is that “Don’t Shut Me Up,” is literary, is more like poetry than an essay. It was intended to be. It was not intended to be a critique or an analysis or even an essay, let alone some final and definitive word on anything (!), so it wouldn’t really make sense to treat it as though it were something like this. I agree that it is a powerful piece of writing and I am proud of it, but as with all writing of this type, I offered it, I sent it into the universe, the reader will take whatever she takes from it or not. It wasn’t intended to prove anything or to defend anything. It was me, writing about my life, about women’s lives.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 29, 2006, 8:07 pm
  23. So, here’s what I’m thinking. It’s no particular blog, no other feminist, no single man that shuts us up. And it’s not just porn or blowjobs or prostitution or s/m that we get shut up about. One of the tools of the patriarchy is the silencing of women. Sometimes the charge of “man-hating” is used. Sometimes we’re called “sluts” or “prudes” or “bitches” or “dykes” or “whores” or “teases” or whatever, anything to get us to stop talking about what THOSE IN POWER don’t want us to say anything about. Sometimes this hurts even more when THOSE IN POWER find a way to get those we consider friends and allies to join in shutting us up. It’s this kind of silencing that I thought Heart was talking about. Maybe her post was sparked by some controversies at specific blogs, but her post is clearly about much more than a single sexual act or a single entity saying, “shut up, please.” Women are routinely and systematically denied access to and expression of their rage which is often what leads to ACTION. No women’s rage, no women’s action. Now, who does that work well for? Hmmm… I’m thinking it’s not the women.
    YL

    Posted by Yawning Lion | July 6, 2006, 10:00 pm
  24. Fascinating…I’ve never actually visited a feminist blog before, but a third-hand discussion of this debate intrigued me enough to come here.

    I’m afraid I can’t offer you any entertaining anti-feminist vitriol. I’ll merely make the observation that reading about how women have always been shut up and are still being shut up and don’t want to be shut up anymore, in lengthy and repetitive prose, is like reading about how certain anarchist or libertarian views are so dangerous that the government suppresses them; that is, it seems self-contradictory for someone to say that they cannot speak.

    Posted by David | July 21, 2006, 2:16 pm
  25. david’s comment is incredibly annoying, condescending and contributes absolutely nothing to this discussion.

    IMHO, that is.

    thank you for your voice, heart.
    xoxo, jared

    Posted by ms. jared | July 23, 2006, 6:14 pm
  26. I think the point is…Abuse is abuse. It’s always traumatizing and almost always misunderstood by the people around the victim. It’s frightening, infuriating, and frustrating that people have such grave misunderstandings. To belittle one experience is to say “You don’t have a right to complain,” “shut up,” “get over it.”

    The circumstances around it are somewhat different, but I’ve been getting the “get over it” for most of my life, and sometimes the only thing that stops you from beating the living daylights out of these people is a drive to somehow try to stop it from happening anymore.

    Posted by CJ | March 24, 2007, 1:07 am
  27. THANK YOU HEART. I AM WITH YOU WHOLE HEARTEDLY WITH MY MIND AND HEART. THANK FOR YOUR RAGE. IT NEEDS TO BE HEARD RESPOECTED FOR ITS LEGITIMACY. ITS VALIDITY

    Posted by JANINE E GAUTHIER | April 11, 2007, 4:10 am
  28. MY FATHER SILENCES MY MOTHER, MY BROTHER AND MY MOTHER AND HIS FIRST AND SECOND WIFE SILENCE ME A LOT. I’M NO ALLIWED TO GET ANGRY OR TO TELL MEN OFF WOTHPUT BEING TRIVUALIZED CONDESCENDED TO PUT DOWN LAUGHED AT TOLD SO WHAT. MY FATHER BELITTLED ME A MNALE HOMOSEXUAL PSYCHIATRIS BELITTLED ME, MY BROTHER HAS BULLIED ME, DEMEANED AND DENIGRATED ME, BLACKMAILED ME, MANIPULTAED ME AND THEY ALL GOT AWAY WITH AND I DIDN’T KNOW HW TO STAND UP FOR MYSELF, PROTECT MYSELF TO THEIR BENEFIT.

    Posted by JANINE E GAUTHIER | April 11, 2007, 4:19 am
  29. MY FAMIOY BETRAYED ME AND USED ME TO THEIR BENEFIT. MY BROTHER JYST TAKES AND DOES NOT RECIPROCATE. HE’S A KEPT MAN, MAINLY CONCERNED WIH HAVING FUN.

    Posted by JANINE E GAUTHIER | April 11, 2007, 4:22 am
  30. Yeah, Janine, I hear you. At some point, it’s just enough. The sad thing is, the same has happened to countless numbers of women, and yet they continue to pretend, continue to feel sorry for the men instead of facing up to what men do to us as women, continue to defend the men and, just as you and I have said, to silence women who dare speak our truth.

    Thank you!

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | April 11, 2007, 12:35 pm
  31. “Shut up” are words that need never even be spoken aloud. Those two words are there, implicitly and incidiously lurking behind many actions. The words are there to a little girl being molested over and over throughout her whole childhood. The words are there when that little girl tries to speak her truth and is ignored and trivialized. The lesson learned by that girl is that she has no meaningful voice, and that lesson is carried into adulthood.

    The words are there, still silent, but certainly implied, when the now grown woman tries out her voice. Those exact two words may never uttered, but the meaning is there, cloaked in words of “your little hobby”, “oh, another bandwagon you are jumping on”, “you are so blonde”, “why are you complaining, I give you everything you need”.

    How many generations of women are going to have to chafe under this burden? In my lifetime I see four living generations of women, and of course, in Herstory, it is to the beginning of time.

    I had hope that my generation would be the last to be silenced, but sadly, I see now that this is not so, and there is a rage building, starting to gather speed and intensity….for the truth is, a soul cannot stay silent in the face of ongoing onslaughts.

    Posted by Raven | April 17, 2007, 4:30 pm
  32. yeah.

    Posted by sparx | May 21, 2007, 2:47 pm
  33. Hey, Rosa, it’s always good.

    You know it’s amazing some of the vitriolic response to this post back when I wrote it– from self-identified feminists!

    One cannot rhetorically touch teh porn and teh subordinating sex acts without paying for it some kind of way.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | May 21, 2007, 6:05 pm
  34. How can you be so dismissive Somethingerine. I mean you missed the entire point. There is nothing loving or intimate about blowjobs. When blowjobs become loving, intimate then you will have a point about how you’ve moved on. And sex that is increasingly pornographic and degrading IS something to rage about. Blowjobs, specifically violent sexual scenarios ARE something to rage about along with pornography and no this is not the “crux” of radical feminisim. Radical feminists are not waging war against sex because BLOW JOBS ARE NOT SEX. Pornography is NOT sex. Sex is between two human beings not between a human and two or three holes. We redefine sex. And I’ll BE DAMNED if someone is going to come on here and talk about how they’ve transcended and accepted “sex” in response to raging against blowjobs and pornography or insist htat somehow ACCEPTING PORNOGRAPHY AND BLOWJOBS (which is what the post discussed -not sex-) is somehow a higher path. Get real.

    Posted by Kiuku | June 26, 2007, 3:31 am
  35. I think Heart should have shut up David. Because obviously he has no idea, as a man, what it’s like to be shut up, or even dismissed, because as a man he is always listened to, always heard, not ever “seeking attention”. I think he should have been shut up by Heart, and not allowed to post on here, and to whine to himself about how it is hypocritical and unfair, because god-forbid a man gets shut up. I honestly can’t believe Heart actually gave him a voice on here, a say in this discussion. He obviously doesn’t know what it’s like and needs to be shown what it is like to be shut up.

    Posted by Kiuku | June 26, 2007, 1:42 pm
  36. He doesn’t even know it’s possible to be shut-up? How amazing is that!

    Posted by Kiuku | June 26, 2007, 1:45 pm
  37. David’s post was meant to dismiss Hearrrt’s entire point, which was about how she’s tired of being told to shut up. Kind of amusingly ironic, really.

    Incidently, how did I *ever* miss this post? What fire! Look out, world! May this fire never be quinched, Hearrrt.

    Thanks Kiuku, for bring it back up.

    mAndrea

    Posted by mAndrea | August 7, 2007, 9:11 pm
  38. I missed it until today too, mAndrea, but I think that’s because I particularly needed to read it today. I’m tired of shutting up; it didn’t make me safe so I’m not going to do it any more.

    Posted by anonymom | August 8, 2007, 12:40 am

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