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Pre-2008 Posts

Rape of the “Hadji Girl, Part IV,” a Question: Are There Any Men Blogging About This Besides the Ones Who Are Sending Me Death Threats?

So, I have a question.

The following blogs, that I know of, have linked to the articles here, or have blogged about the rape of ‘Abir Hamzah themselves: Den of the Biting Beaver, Sinister Girl, I’m Not a Feminist But, Capitalism Bad, Tree Pretty, One Ohio Woman, Laurelin in the Rain, Incurable Hippie, One Salford Feminist, Burning Library, Abyss2Hope, Feministing

All of these blogs are women’s blogs.

Has anybody seen any pro-feminist men blogging about this anywhere?  I don’t mean leftist guys talking about the war in general and why we should get out and taking potshots at Republicans, Bush and the Right in general using this horrific event as just so much more cannon fodder.  Fuck that.  I definitely don’t mean right-wing and pro-war men.  They definitely are blogging about it.  In fact, I have received death threats from some of these guys as a result of these posts.

I mean male allies.  Pro-feminist men.  Where is your analysis?  Where is your outrage?  Where can I go to find you calling out the men on their rape of this girl?  Where are you calling men out for using and buying rape pornography of the type I posted on this blog?  Where is your discussion going on?  Where are you talking about soldiers trading photos of battlefield butchery for photos of raped Iraqi women?  Where are you talking about rape during wartime, rape as war, rape as femicide?

Where is your support?  Where are your expressions of solidarity?

Where the hell are you?




44 thoughts on “Rape of the “Hadji Girl, Part IV,” a Question: Are There Any Men Blogging About This Besides the Ones Who Are Sending Me Death Threats?


    An 11 year old girl who was a runaway was recently raped by up to seven college (I think junior college) football players. The coach of some of the players quickly advised them to speak w/law as per their rights. What halfway sane person wants a person who rapes an 11 year old on their football team?
    All of the players said nothing except to complain that they would be seen in a bad light and that they didn’t feel they had done anything wrong. In the article I read on it in the LA Times yesterday, the last quote in the story was by a police chief saying “We know 11 year olds don’t always make good decisions.” What a way to end the story. It crossed my mind the journalist (a female) was trying to show the absurdity of the chief’s statement in light of what had happened, but I think I was reading in too much. Hoping for too much. Newsreporting on a story such as this one should be plain–although I still hold on to hope she was trying to be subversive.

    It’s always somehow brought back to the survivor –even a child survivor. I was feeling just awful, and alienated, yesterday — about this. I felt exactly like you Heart — where is the outrage? Knowing that so many just wonder aloud “wonder why shes was a runaway” or “maybe she was a drug user or wearing a bikini” or “why was she hanging out w/football players, must’ve been a bad kid…”?
    As if these are the important questions. Why don’t more people wonder aloud about how anyone can do this to anyone else, no matter who they are?

    –Obviously the whole story and all its components just felt so devastating. It can be so hard for me to take when people don’t seem to be affected by stories like these. Even women, it’s like it blurs right through so many people and I don’t understand it at all.

    I always turn to Dworkin when I I feel this way (and forgiveness writings I have by different mysttcs) — so I can sope–because otherwise the weight of it is too crushing. It’s just so hard to hear no outrage. The silence is deafening. No wonder this happens day after day, indeed, minute after minute, across the world. Somehow we have all quietly accepted rape of people, most especially women, and yes even children, as normal. And this acceptance is infinitely more acceptable by society than outrage over it.
    But on to Dworkin’s quote:

    “Everything that didn’t happen to you–I apply this to myself as part of the way that I survive–everything that didn’t happen to you is a little slack in your leash. You weren’t raped when you were three, or you weren’t raped when you were 10. Or you weren’t battered, or you weren’t in prostitution, whatever it is that you managed to miss is the measure of your freedom. And what you owe to other women.”
    Andrea Dworkin, A True Voice for the Voiceless.

    Posted by Jeyoani | July 12, 2006, 5:23 pm
  2. Is this the By-Stander effect in all it’s glory? Where is, indeed the male out-rage?
    Here in the UK i’m sick and tired of the media referring to Abir Qasim Hamza as a “young woman” she wasn’t a woman, she was a CHILD! And even if she was a woman, what’s the cut off point where women become ok prey for men? 15years 364 days a paedofile? one day later, an object without so much as a pulse.

    Posted by LB | July 12, 2006, 5:45 pm
  3. Jeyoani, I also sometimes turn to Dworkin when it all gets too much and I feel myself cracking at the seams from the weight of holding between my ears the testimonies of women sexually tortured by men. It’s as if I have to remind myself I’m not crazy for seeing men’s casual hatred of women and debasement of all things feminine everywhere.

    Posted by Sam | July 12, 2006, 6:32 pm
  4. jeyoani,

    i read about the rape of the eleven year old also, but the article i read said there were up to TEN men from a Fresno community college.

    i can’t imagine how they’ll spin this to be the girls’ fault but i know they will. it’s disgusting and heartbreaking.


    i’ve appreciated your posts on Abir Hamzah so much, as horrifying and heartbreaking as they’ve been to read. sometimes i’m so overwhelmed with grief that i don’t know what to do. it feels so hopeless and i feel so helpless to d anything.

    i haven’t heard a peep from any of the “pro-feminist” male bloggers on the subject either. then again, i don’t read many male run blogs so i could be wrong.

    xoxo, jared

    Posted by ms. jared | July 12, 2006, 7:05 pm
  5. Heart, (july 10, 2006) and (july 3, 2006) both discuss this.

    Posted by rhondda | July 12, 2006, 7:42 pm
  6. Thanks, Rhondda– I actually read Chris-Floyd’s and thought it was good writing when I read it, but for some reason lumped it in with leftist man stuff as opposed to pro-feminist stuff. I should go back and read it and see why I thought that.

    Oh, I remember why. Because I think I thought Floyd othered the guys who did this in the way leftist men so often do, they come across as though they are so different and so not like that, so it comes off as self-righteous and distancing himself instead of a man, calling out other men, taking responsibility for what men do.


    Posted by womensspace | July 12, 2006, 7:53 pm
  7. The war and taking potshots at republicans serve to distract the boys from having to focus on what the real problem is. Themselves.

    Posted by Luckynkl | July 12, 2006, 8:05 pm
  8. The other thing I didn’t like about Chris Floyd’s post was the photo he included. Not appropriate, and particularly not appropriate for a man to be using.


    Posted by womensspace | July 12, 2006, 8:20 pm
  9. Well, I saw the Chris Floyd one as talking to men about how they did this and the tone was one of disapproval. The picture is an eroticized Muslim women and probably the way to get them to read it. Instead of outright dismissal of the rape and murder or preaching, he gets into the head because he knows that head. In that it was different than other leftists, I felt.
    Stan Goff is very pro-feminist and often calls men on their sexism.

    Posted by rhondda | July 12, 2006, 10:11 pm
  10. Hm, I thought Alas, a Blog might have covered it, but just searched on her name and didn’t come up with it.

    It’s depressing and outrageous.

    Posted by BEG | July 13, 2006, 7:54 am
  11. ***Somehow we have all quietly accepted rape of people, most especially women, and yes even children, as normal.***

    I don’t know that “we” have accepted the rape of “people”, even “children” as normal. Remember the mass revulsion after the stories about the catholic clergy’s abuse of boys? I think our esteemed “fellow” humans have only accepted the rape of women and girls as “normal”, and of men only if they are nonwhite, foreign or “enemies” (as in Abu Ghraib).

    Posted by Branjor | July 13, 2006, 10:54 am
  12. “Because I think I thought Floyd othered the guys who did this in the way leftist men so often do, they come across as though they are so different and so not like that, so it comes off as self-righteous and distancing himself instead of a man, calling out other men, taking responsibility for what men do.”

    I’m a little confused by what you said here. When you say a man should take “responsibility for what men do” it sounds like Chris Floyd should bear guilt for being a man. I agree he was casting the men involved into sort of super villains, and it grated on me, but certainly a man should distance himself from those soldiers just as much as a woman should? Of course I would say I am “so different and so not like that,” what else would I say? How am I supposed to act ethically if I don’t conceive of myself as such?

    Posted by Greg | July 13, 2006, 2:32 pm
  13. I just launched my blog this week. After reading your question to me–a pro-feminist man–I posted about these awful events. Thank you for calling us on our silence and for the important work you’re doing.

    Posted by Academic Texan | July 13, 2006, 4:31 pm
  14. Greg, yeah, fair enough questions. I’ve been thinking about the problems I had with Chris Floyd’s article because I haven’t been completely clear about what bothered me, and what I wrote about it wasn’t really right.

    Maybe this will be a little closer– I’m still thinking about it. And maybe others will come in and offer their perspectives.

    I think what bothered me might not have been so much the othering and distancing, although that bothers me no matter who does it, men or women, and anytime they do it. Pretty much all of the hideous scenarios of history are epitomized in the image of vigilantes in the town square holding torches, blaming one person for what many of them, most of them, all of them have done or thought to do at some point. I think pointing the finger at one man, or even five man, is a scapegoating mechanism, an easy out, a cop out, really, which serves to divert attention from all of the many structural, institutional, cultural, societal problems which created this kind of situation in the first place, which made these men the kind of men they were. No boy is born a rapist. No man is a natural rapist. Men are made to be rapists in what amounts to the rape culture we live in. No boy is born violent. No boy is born a killer. Boys are made to be violent and killers. And in order to unravel that and get to the bottom of it, we have to look less at the fact that this one man, or five men, raped, and more at all of the surrounding circumstances, influences, constructors, norms, values, which brought them to that horrible day in which they raped a little girl and then set her on fire. Dear god.

    I’m getting at something like this when I say men should “take responsibility for what men do.” You, Chris Floyd, Stan Goff (and yeah, go Stan, the guy is always on it and has proved himself to be an ally to women), a few more guys I know, do not need to bear guilt for being a man. Nobody needs to bear guilt for being a man– it is unproductive, always. I think bearing responsibility for what men do means looking, again, very closely at what makes men rapists, what makes men killers, not fingering these young guys and saying, “I would never do that,” but instead, asking, “Why did you do that, son? What was in your mind? What was in your heart and soul?” And, “Why did this young man, these young men, commit this crime?” And then, “How might I be complicit in all of these various mechanisms which played a part in making what happened possible?”

    When a man denounces another man, blames him, points the finger at him, castigates him as “not like me,” and “not like all the good guys,” he is dishing out another tablespoon, or many tablespoons, of the kind of treatment which makes little boys violent. Punishments, blame, shaming, pointing the finger– these are all counterproductive. But this is what our culture says we should rely on nevertheless in the raising of our children.

    Among radical feminist women, when a woman has done something really despicable, we do not denounce her. We do not point our fingers at her or say that she is a horrible person. We say she is our sister, suffering in ways we understand all to well. We say we understand why she did what she did, even if it is horrible, and then we talk a lot about WHY she did what she did. If she, say, abused substances and in the course of that, neglected her child, we don’t castigate and denounce her. We look for the reasons she did this: was she being abused? Was she a survivor of sexual assault or battering? Was she prostituted? Why was she self-medicating? We attempt to go to the root– that’s what radical feminism is, an attempt to go to the root and to see where these antisocial behaviors come from, not in a psychological way as armchair psychiatrists — because we don’t like psychology much, for one thing — but for the sake of analyzing all of the factors which bring a woman to such a self-destructive place of desperation. We don’t say, “What an ass you are! You’re a drunk and you abandoned your child!” We ask questions. We provide support. We say, “Sister, we understand, how can we help.” At least this is the goal. This is what we believe is the right thing to do.

    And this is also, I think, what I would like to see more and more of in men. Not, “You are rotten filthy scum! I would never do that!” But, “Brother, we understand the impulses, we understand all of those feelings, how can we help. What brought you to this point?” There is real hope in that– hope for real change. I think men nurturing one another that way — yep, nurturing, something men find it so hard to do for and with one another — is an important way through which men are going to have to find if anything is ever going to change. Punishing a man for what he’s done, even by distancing oneself, is just same old same old, heterosupremacist, one-up/one down, relating and it’s really what got us to this point in history, where the world balances on a knife-edge of hostilities and recriminations, accusations, blamings and distancings. Islamic terrorists call us terrorists (and we are), and the U.S. calls them terrorists (and some are), and the fingers get pointed, everybody gets duly blamed and shamed and vilified and sometimes murdered. So what is the ultimate end of that kind of thing? The world destroyed, really, by whomever gets the most weapons fastest and is willing to use them.

    That begins with instances like this, where we make a person who has committed a really, really foul deed not like us and then other him all the way to executing him. We need to begin to think, and deal with these situations differently.

    Which does not mean we have to like or love anybody, especially men like this who have done this horrible thing. It doesn’t mean we don’t hold them accountable and keep the world safe from them. It does mean that we do a whole lot *more* than that, though, a whole lot more.


    Posted by womensspace | July 13, 2006, 4:44 pm
  15. Punkass Marc covered the way that her age is being reported (using the term woman when she was 14) as a way of minimizing the gravity of the crime, and related issues of women’s worth in society.

    Posted by sly civilian | July 13, 2006, 5:06 pm
  16. I just didn’t know about this atrocity until today – I’ve been too busy with art projects to keep up as much with blogs and with the news as I used to. I’ve just posted about it on “Alas.”

    Heart, forgive the digression, but are you familiar with Mary Koss’ and other feminists’ work on restorative justice for victims of rape? Some of what you posted in comments, about the lack of effectiveness of punishment, reminded me of the work on restorative justice.

    Posted by Ampersand | July 13, 2006, 6:20 pm
  17. I so often feel let down by ‘lefty’ men. They kinda say the right things, and then act opposite. Nod at the appropriate bits of rally speeches, then objectify women in the pub afterwards.

    Men need to prove themselves to me. I don’t believe what they say, or what they say they think. Not any more. And I’ve got to give all my energy to women, I don’t have the time or desire to ‘teach’ or ‘educate’ men about women and misogyny. They have to work it out, and act. It’s not my role to keep them on track. They have to do it for themselves, and so few do.

    I hate it. Campaign against the war blokes, campaign for equal pay, but when the real fucking women’s issues come up, just disappear and smirk. Fuck them.

    Posted by hippie | July 13, 2006, 6:33 pm
  18. Thanks for telling me about punkass, Sly Civilian, I’ll check out his blog.

    Amp, I first learned about restorative justice in my sojourns amongst the Plain People, beginning when I served with (liberal) Mennonites in a volunteer inner city project back when I was in college. The Plain People — Mennonites, Quakers, Brethren, Bruderhof, particularly — have a long and rich history of study of, and advocacy for, restorative justice (although really, the ideas can be traced further back to Native Americans and First Nations people in the U.S. and Canada.) I’m not familiar with Koss’s work, but I am really glad to hear she’s involved in it and will definitely check it out.

    These days I am into something called “Transformative Justice,” which I am fairly excited about. “Restorative Justice” suggests that there is something for victims/perpetrators to be restored *to*, and in the case of women, poor people, people of color, that is often an issue– what are they going to be restored *to*? Their former impoverished, disenfranchised, marginalized or dysfunctional communities or situations? Also, restorative justice, in practice, as awesome as it is compared with the alternatives, in its recently-institutionalized forms has not been able to successfully negotiate imbalances in power relations. So for example, where there are healing or sentencing circles, the people involved carry their societal power, or lack thereof into the circles and this can’t help but affect outcomes. If, say, a white man with status in the community has abused or raped his wife, what he says doesn’t get challenged or those involved may feel intimidated, and the same where perps/victims are people of color, poor, etc.

    Here is a good article about Transformative Justice:

    But I will definitely check out Mary Koss!

    Hippie, yeah– I want men to deal with men when it comes to all the ways they abuse women. ALL the ways. I want to see them taking care of their own issues. Don’t denounce the rapists in Iraq if you get off to rape pornography, you know? Don’t call out men who are violent if you mistreat your girlfriend, your kids, your dog or your cat. Make the connections, please!


    Posted by womensspace | July 13, 2006, 7:15 pm
  19. River at Baghdad Burning is blogging about this:

    “Hail the American heroes… Raise your heads high supporters of the ‘liberation’ – your troops have made you proud today. I don’t believe the troops should be tried in American courts. I believe they should be handed over to the people in the area and only then will justice be properly served. And our ass of a PM, Nouri Al-Maliki, is requesting an ‘independent investigation’, ensconced safely in his American guarded compound because it wasn’t his daughter or sister who was raped, probably tortured and killed. His family is abroad safe from the hands of furious Iraqis and psychotic American troops.

    “It fills me with rage to hear about it and read about it. The pity I once had for foreign troops in Iraq is gone. It’s been eradicated by the atrocities in Abu Ghraib, the deaths in Haditha and the latest news of rapes and killings. I look at them in their armored vehicles and to be honest- I can’t bring myself to care whether they are 19 or 39. I can’t bring myself to care if they make it back home alive. I can’t bring myself to care anymore about the wife or parents or children they left behind. I can’t bring myself to care because it’s difficult to see beyond the horrors. I look at them and wonder just how many innocents they killed and how many more they’ll kill before they go home. How many more young Iraqi girls will they rape?

    “Why don’t the Americans just go home? They’ve done enough damage and we hear talk of how things will fall apart in Iraq if they ‘cut and run’, but the fact is that they aren’t doing anything right now. How much worse can it get? People are being killed in the streets and in their own homes- what’s being done about it? Nothing. It’s convenient for them- Iraqis can kill each other and they can sit by and watch the bloodshed- unless they want to join in with murder and rape.

    “Buses, planes and taxis leaving the country for Syria and Jordan are booked solid until the end of the summer. People are picking up and leaving en masse and most of them are planning to remain outside of the country. Life here has become unbearable because it’s no longer a ‘life’ like people live abroad. It’s simply a matter of survival, making it from one day to the next in one piece and coping with the loss of loved ones and friends…”

    Ms Jared found this and posted it to Alas.


    Posted by womensspace | July 13, 2006, 7:46 pm
  20. Something else that’s making my blood boil is now that Abir has been identified as only 14; I’ve noticed that a lot of the outrage is now cantered on “child rape” and so on. And that’s all well and good, of course child rape is hideous, BUT so is woman rape!!!Ffs.
    After the media got their act together and established her age, Broadsheet at said, “Rape is a horrible crime — whether it’s perpetrated on a “young woman,” a “teen” or a “girl.” Highlighting that the media couldn’t make up their minds how to classify her.

    May I add rape is a horrible crime to ANY child, woman, whatever. At what age exactly does it become OK for men to rape a female?? Any time after her 16th birthday?

    It’s as though the Media is playing “competition” with the rape and murder. It’s worse to rape a child than a woman, yes it is., but it doesn’t detract from the fact that a FEMALE was sexually tortured and murdered as the object of some men’s sexual depravity.
    Sorry this is a bit “off topic” as regards to the male bloggers, but it’s got me high as a kite!

    Posted by LB | July 13, 2006, 8:11 pm
  21. A Rape in Iraq
    Suki Falconberg
    July 11, 2006

    “This is no distant story. It holds a personal note for me, this possible gang rape and murder of a 14-year-old Iraqi girl by American soldiers. The story has been hitting the media for the past week and a half, and—as of today—the New York Times reports that six soldiers might be implicated.

    “The personal note is that I have been gang raped by American soldiers. (See my “War and Sex” article for my description of this experience in my past.) The cold fear of male violence never entirely leaves raped bodies. Unexpectedly, things surface, and this story is triggering those things in me–phantom rape pain, jumpiness, feeling startled if a man comes too near. Since I am used to reading about rape, living with it, writing about it, even experiencing it, why such an impact from this one incident?

    “It may be because this is the first time the “R” word has surfaced in Iraq. In our three-year occupation of that country, is this the only time our men have raped? Given their war/rape record elsewhere, it would be hard to believe. It is a real puzzler to me that the U.S. Military is admitting to this possible rape of one Iraqi girl when they have done little, if anything, to acknowledge the rapes of thousands upon thousands of other girls by our soldiers during wartime. Widespread violation of girls took place in Vietnam. (One vet I know said it was so common the men called it SIMR, Standard Issue Military Rape.) After WWII, rape by American soldiers in Europe was “extensive,” according to the Oxford Companion to American Military History. Rape of French girls by our men was so widespread that General Eisenhower actually had to acknowledge it was going on. He did nothing about it, of course, but he did admit it was happening. Our men produced roughly 200,000 Amerasian children upon the bodies of destitute Japanese girls after WWII—an indication that massive rape of prostituted/brothelized bodies was going on in the Pacific. During the battle of Okinawa, our boys raped a whole village of women and girls too sick and weak to even run away from them.

    “Wartime rape/prostitution is common, the norm. Why is the military only taking note of this one incident, when the bodies of hundreds of thousands of girls have been sexually brutalized by our military?”

    Also, Ruth Rosen on Sexual Terrorism and Iraqi Women.


    Posted by womensspace | July 13, 2006, 8:37 pm
  22. LB, I think there is all of this avoidance around the age of ‘Abir, in part because it is sooooo telling and so revealing that it was a 14yo girl who was raped. These guys know damn well they are to keep their hands AND their eyes off of 14 year old girls, and yet this is who they fixed their eyes on when they had free rein to. There is a creepy, creepy paragraph in the, hmm, US News and World Report, I guess, report of this that says ‘Abir’s little brother told them one reason his sister was scared and told her mom about it was that at one point, the guy who raped her, when she was at the checkpoint, slowly drew his finger down her cheek. God. She was 14 and here is this military man, with all of this power, can’t be prosecuted for a damn thing while in Iraq, touching her cheek like he’s crazy.

    This society is SO perverse. Of COURSE 14-year-old girls are fair game — I mean, consider American Beauty(the movie), where the middle-age male star gets all sorts of empathy and compassion over his sexual obsessions with his teenage daughter’s friend. I HATED THAT MOVIE. It enshrined a hideous, hideous phenomena in this country of men raping and sexually assaulting teenage girls as though it were somehow lovable and sort of funny, thoroughly understandable, and oh, you know, these men in midlife crisis, what are you going to do. And look, in the end, he decided not to fuck her after all. What a sweet guy, I mean who could blame him for lusting after her.

    But men know better. They know better. But worse than that, the popularity of this movie evidences — I think — that in fact, they don’t care whether they know better, they lust after young girls anyway. A baby or a child– eh, that’s a freaking pedophile, not someone like me. A man who rapes a woman? Hideous, but it happens every day, not totally shocking. But to rape a 14-year-old girl. I think that hits close to home for a lot of men– too close. Like god, he did what I’ve thought of doing, what we all thought of doing. Quick, call him personality disordered, and don’t talk too much about the fact that she was 14.


    Posted by womensspace | July 13, 2006, 8:55 pm
  23. Heart if there’s a Pulitzer for blogging you’ve capped it.

    Where are the men of the left you ask. Silly you. They’re defending baby seals and sawhet owls, for which they have 20/20 vision.

    Women’s suffering with rape and porn is outside the focal range of their convenient blinders.

    Posted by pony | July 13, 2006, 10:22 pm
  24. just another find of good coverage on this… Juan Cole just linked to, which is based off of pieces by Ruth Rosen and Raheem Saleman.

    This story seems to have taken a little while to gain momentum (and that might say something), but the visability is still climbing. Thanks for all your coverage.

    Posted by sly civilian | July 15, 2006, 1:01 am
  25. Yeah, sly civilian, seems like people are paying attention now. Thanks for the link!


    Posted by womensspace | July 15, 2006, 3:46 am
  26. And thanks, pony– what a nice thing to say!


    Posted by womensspace | July 15, 2006, 4:14 pm
  27. Heart,

    Thanks for your postings on the rape and murders in Iraq. You’ve really put it out there for people to read. If people are threatening you, your message is getting out but please take care of yourself. Threats are scary things. One thing I’ve learned from blogging is that it does piss off some rather scary people. But keep doing it, because most people probably hear you.

    Take care,

    Posted by Radfem | July 15, 2006, 8:16 pm
  28. Hey, thank, radfem. I know you definitely are one of the experts on how it feels to be threatened. 😦 At this point in my life, it’s sort of like, I just don’t care. I have been so close to death so many times in my life, I guess I’ve concluded I’m not going til it’s my time to go, in the meantime, like one of my favorite singers says, “no hands but my hands, no voice but my voice, gotta keep on tellin’ my truth til I got no choice.” I love that. (That’s from Nedra Johnson’s “It’s a Good Thing” on her “Nedra” CD.)

    On a different subject, I had some good words for the counselor and two soldiers who finally told what had happened, but I’m taking them back. What the heck. That is just Exhibit A of how willing I am to find SOMEONE doing right in a situation. 😦 They knew about it all along, right? Up to the point that they told. When did they tell. When their two comrades were murdered and mutilated. They didn’t tell because it was the right thing to do. They told (1) because what happened to their comrades was horrible; (2) becaues they might be next.




    Posted by womensspace | July 16, 2006, 2:14 pm
  29. Heart, I’m a man, and for some reason I thought you didn’t let men post here although there are 3 or more in this thread. If this doesn’t get through, whatever.

    I’d just like to say that I found your comment of 7/13 4:44 above amazing. Thanks for that.

    Posted by nobadges | July 18, 2006, 8:28 pm
  30. Hey, thanks, no badges.

    I don’t know what my moderation policy is, honestly. At first my comments sections were going to be women only. My boards are woman-only and I really value woman-only space and think things happen in woman-only space, or can, that rarely can where men are present. But the blogosphere seems different from boards to me, and I don’t know if that’s just me, or what. I moderate strenuously here, every comment has to be approved by me. I don’t let anything get through that is trollish or baiting or anything like that, so that concern is eliminated. With my boards, I wanted and want women to feel free to just post whatever without being moderated. Here, I moderate women, too, who post trollish stuff.

    Maybe I think blogs serve a different purpose than boards do. Blogs seem more like media to me, boards seem more like community. Blogs, or mine, seem more like a venue for getting the word out and boards seem more like a place to process ideas, news, etc.

    So I’m still thinking about it and while I’m thinking about it, I’m approving men’s posts. I should really settle on a policy, I guess, huh.

    Well, I’m open to everybody’s thoughts– hold forth, anybody who has some. 🙂


    Posted by womensspace | July 18, 2006, 9:58 pm
  31. Now wait a second, Womensspace! How can you denounce a movie that empathizes with a man who sits himself down and asks himself, “Why are you feeling this way? This is wrong, and you need to come to understand why. Once you understand it, you need to act upon your understanding.”

    Why is it “necessary” for a “good man” to do this to a “bad man,” as you wrote to Greg:
    “I think bearing responsibility for what men do means … asking, “Why did you do that, son? What was in your mind? What was in your heart and soul?” And, “Why did this young man, these young men, commit this crime?” And then, “How might I be complicit in all of these various mechanisms which played a part in making what happened possible?””

    Why is it so bad to portray a man who can do it to HIMSELF–who can be his own intervention–in a positive light?

    Posted by Katie | July 20, 2006, 12:28 pm
  32. I don’t think that’s what Kevin Spacey’s character did at all. I think he, a middle aged man, focused sexually on a teenager — his daughter’s friend — stalked her, preyed on her, groomed her, turned her into an object, and then reinvented himself in the end as some sort of a good guy because after she has her clothes off, he turns her down, thereby evidencing that dominance can be established not only via the saying of “yes” but the saying of “no.” At that point, she wanted to have sex with him. He should have gone through with it. He was no noble guy, he was a totally predatory ass. He didn’t ask himself a damn thing. He exploited her, preyed on her and stalked her until he got her to take her clothes off, and then said, oh shit, better not, thereby humiliating her while notching his own goddamn bedpost.

    Dear god how much do I despise that movie.

    Anyway, my post went to how we deal with guys like this soldier who would rape and murder a little girl. It didn’t have anything to do with affluent white assholes with too much time on their hands who ought to tie a fucking knot in it, but don’t, and get themselves into predicaments, like being just about to fuck their child’s friend.

    God I hate that movie!

    And if you want to know how I really feel, I’ll tell you!


    Posted by womensspace | July 20, 2006, 4:09 pm
  33. Just another example of how much we thank men for so little and want so much for them to see us as human we often supply what isn’t there at all.

    Posted by Pony | July 20, 2006, 4:39 pm
  34. Well, I’m open to everybody’s thoughts– hold forth, anybody who has some.

    Why do you need a policy? Seriously. Another option is to trust your instincts on a post-by-post basis. If you feel that men posting in a particular post’s comments is detrimental, go with that; if another thread doesn’t feel like having men post will be detrimental, then go with that too.

    Just my suggestion, of course. 🙂

    And I entirely hate that movie, too. Another reason to hate it, is the absolute lack of sympathy given the wife character, and how much the Kevin Spacey’s character’s cruelty to her is presented as jolly good fun. His “growth” is entirely self-centered, and never leads him to the conclusion that there’s something wrong with the way he’s been treating his wife like shit.

    Posted by Ampersand | July 23, 2006, 1:53 am
  35. I’ve thought about the ‘men posting’ issue too. While I like there are some blogs where it’s not supported I also like that some blogs leave in (and don’t respond to ) men’s posts.

    Google is archiving. Everything will be here 10 or 15 years from now if the past is an indicator. You can find posts made to boards, chats and usenet that are from 1986!

    This is historical record. Leave the posts in to show our children and grandchildren and historians in 2026 the level of patriarchal abuse still experienced by women in 2006.

    Posted by Pony | July 23, 2006, 11:13 pm
  36. Great blog and it is nice to see there are other women out there that can see through all the BS the media puts out to glorify men and dehumanize women.

    I really like the postings of womensspace! She is right on the mark and most of all on the mark of getting to the root of the problem. The true root of all of humanity’s problems is that men rule the world, thats a no brainer. I guess the real question should be… why and how men came to rule, especially when all the archaeological evidence points to prehistoric, ancient, and even the more recent history of the Native Americans as Machriarchal rule. Patriarchy and war are only 6000 years old and we all know the human race is far older than just 6000 years old. Some scholars believe that it was drought and famine that caused a great change in the male/female and Mother/infant bonds. They have successfully mapped out behavior maps tracing patriarchal rule back to the Shaharasia area and the birth place of the patriarchal abrahamic religions(Judaism, Christianity and Islam) that help spread its he-man woman haters club throughout the world.

    I’m sure I have offended the faithful here, but damnit someone has to say it! If you really want to get to the root of womens oppression and mistreatment, you only have to look at the bible and what it says about women, rape, the abuse of children and minorities. Tt mirras the worst of our society.

    Posted by fed up | August 1, 2006, 3:48 am
  37. Hey, Heart, your challenge to male bloggers did get my attention, though I had no blog at the time. This is Alexander Wren, aka Angry Scientist: Blowing the whistle on misuse of science and language. Maybe you recognize that name. My rant on rape was inspired by your challenge. Would you mind posting a trackback to this post? BTW I have been admonished not to drop any names, but I can say you and your friends are welcome on my blog.

    Posted by Angry Scientist | August 10, 2006, 1:01 pm
  38. Just ran across your blog today while gathering research materials for a blog I’ll be initiating in a matter of weeks. A number of subjects to be covered – 9/11, global warming, impeachment, etc. and believe me, steven green is among a very short list of my “most wanted”.

    I’m a 56 year old male, and just to let you know: I’m enraged beyond belief by this. Any single one of the things these animals did would have made me feel the same way – the rape, the murder, the murder of her family.
    It was, however, the whole nine yards – rape, murder, and murder the witnesses. And mr. green is at the center of it all!!!

    All men, I repeat, All men are excited by the idea of rape. But that’s why we’ve got evolved brains – to give us the ability to put a lid on that excitement, to put it where it belongs – out of sight, out of mind. Green, on the other hand, seems to be too obsessed with the enjoyment of his primal instincts to even consider the possibility of such a thing. So, in my opinion, he shouldn’t be allowed to walk the earth in freedom with the rest of us. I can only hope that the Army will actually do the right thing and go for the conviction.

    Posted by Larry Parker | October 15, 2006, 9:22 pm
  39. I know you posted this in June. I am absolutely outraged by the rape and killing of Abir. I have been an Amnesty Int member and womens issues member since 1989 but I am disillusioned by the selective issues. Much of my action was letter writing but I know now more direct action needs to happen. I picked up a copy of Off our backs and it has ignited interest to be more active with womens issues, liberation and enpowerment. I am in the jail business and have been for the last 20 years, have been outspoken on abuses with women in custody and I am sad to say women are viewed as incidental, convenient and at times bothersome.
    Know there are men out there that are acting on the rights of women and doing somethings that are not public

    Posted by Bob Erickson | November 6, 2006, 12:05 am
  40. Women Survivors

    Violence against Women in Eastern Europe:

    Would you like to know more about how and why a Ph.D. candidate doing field research back in her native country was kidnapped, drugged, gang raped, and was about to be killed by a band led by Roma man who alleged to be “her husband” since her childhood?

    Please visit us at:

    Posted by Alice Rose | April 16, 2007, 9:09 pm
  41. thats some fucked up shit but who cares rape stories happen everywhere a girl is getting raped every 5 minutes.I no how it feels i have been raped by my boyfriends and their friends and they forced me 2 suck their dicks and i did wat they told me 2 do.They were so cruel that they forced me 2 prostitute myself just because i am so pretty and have color eyes and that i have a sexy body and that i’m slim and cute.And that I needed 2 get their money soon and even though they spread rumors talking about they own me and that they could do anythang they want to me like suck their dicks over and over again get raped by his friends the old and young ones like 16-29 and that i was their bitch and thet could do anythang 2 me every time they want 2 and any place they want 2 do that nasty shit 2 me.they said that i’m their hoe and shit and i did wat they told me 2 do .and now ima stay single for the rest of my life because i have 2 be wit them and i’m their hoe because they threaten me that they were gonna kill me if i didn’t do wat they told me 2 do. Never in my life ima trust boys because all of them are the same 2 me. now my body feels gross to me and write now they r still raping me again and again and they r never gonna stop doing it , but please guys and girls don’t worry i no how 2 protect myself and i am not gonna let them hurt me please believe i regret it i wish i could defend myself and hurt them if they try 2 hurt me .i’ma tough cookie.I am only 17 years old and i’m on my teenage years and my boyfriend is 19 years old but he is hot and sooooooooo cute and thats why i respect him even though he hurts me and makes me do all that stuff i no he luves me alot and i luv him 2.We r 2 lovebirds.I never want 2 lose him because he is the cutest boy i have seen in my life. all these boys tons of them ask me out and i said no 2 all of then except my boo i said yes 2 him and we fell in luv wit eachother and first sight.He said he luves me because i am so attractive and so hotttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!and that i am a good bitch and a good hoe and that i have good feelings deep inside me and i no he has good feelings and that he says he haves feelings 4 me 2 deep inside his heart he luvs me i no it!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted by crystal | April 27, 2007, 3:47 am
  42. After seeing all these I’m quite proud of my culture. All those people saying how badly we treat women, but being completely ignorant about their’s. I feel sorry for all those ignorant people that hate.

    Posted by muslim men | October 16, 2008, 12:13 am


  1. Pingback: Feminist Law Professors » Blog Archive » On the “Rape of the Hadjii Girl” - July 13, 2006

  2. Pingback: Alas, a blog » Blog Archive » American Soldiers Arrested For Rape/Execution Of 14-Year Old Girl And Her Family - July 13, 2006

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