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Pre-2008 Posts

“If the Holocaust is a Myth, Where is My Sister?” — Holocaust Deniers Meet in Iran

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These are very strange days.  A meeting of Holocaust deniers, hosted in Iran by President Ahmadinejad, has just ended.  Included among the  invited guests were, on the one hand, such notorious haters as white supremacist and former KKK leader David Duke and,  on the other, anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews who, while they do not deny the Holocaust, believe Zionists have overstated the number of Jews killed under Hitler’s regime and who oppose the creation of the nation of Israel because in their view it is unbiblical.  A founder of the Lebanese Hezbollah who attended the conference said that the gas chambers in Hitler’s Germany were a “tale”.  Ahmadinijed said:

Thanks to people’s wishes and God’s will, the trend for the existence of the Zionist regime is downward.  This is what God has promised and what all nations want. Just as the Soviet Union was wiped out and today does not exist, so will the Zionist regime soon be wiped out.

When I was a little girl, every Fourth of July, Veteran’s Day, patriotic holiday, my dad, who served in the Army in Japan the year World War II ended, would recite the poem “Flanders Field” to us, by memory.  The lines that always stuck with me were the lines about the world leaders and whether they were satisfied.  It went, “They played their game of checkers and 11 million died.”  This was common knowledge to all Americans in the second half of the 20th century, and yet here it is, 2006, and “scholars” are meeting to dispute what we all know to be true, playing their own game of checkers which can result, inevitably, only in all of us losing.

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Discussion

15 thoughts on ““If the Holocaust is a Myth, Where is My Sister?” — Holocaust Deniers Meet in Iran

  1. To holocaust deniers – when I was a child I SAW the concentration camp number on the arm of my friend Leah’s mother. And believe me, it was no beauty decoration.

    Posted by Branjor | December 13, 2006, 3:09 pm
  2. Many historians are denying the extent of the early modern ‘witch hunts’ declaring there has been gross exaggeration. Of course, that was mainly directed at women so it is to be expected. A couple of years ago my daughter’s history teacher spoke of the holocaust along the lines of “yes well IF you believe it was this extreme” Just goes to demonstrate just how HIStory can be contorted for what ever the reasons.

    Posted by sparklematrix | December 13, 2006, 5:32 pm
  3. I figure it’s only a matter of time before the boys deny that slavery and reservations ever existed too. None of this really surprises me. I’m kinda use to it. My ex use to rewrite history every third day.

    But it’s not just half-century old history the boys rewrite. Not even a year after the Hurricane Katrina disaster, the government boys were telling us what a fine job they did and how quick their response was. That sure ain’t the way I remember it. But tell a lie long enough, often enough, and by enough people, it then becomes the truth.

    Hmmm… that gives me an idea. Maybe we should just stop teaching little boys how to talk? If they can’t talk, they can’t tell us any more big fish tales!

    Posted by luckynkl | December 14, 2006, 5:22 am
  4. Yeah, I remember the tattoos too, Branjor. I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood in NY and have sat at many a table with friends whose parents were tattooed. I was always a curious little shit and had no couth so I’d ask about the tattoos. And then my friends’ parents would begin to tell their stories…

    To this day, I can’t watch films and documentaries about the Holocaust without spiraling out of control. I can’t even wrap my mind around this shit. 11 million people. 6 million Jews and 5 million non-Jews. It wasn’t just the Jews that were targeted. The Russians were particularly hit hard. Which is why Germany quickly surrendered before the Russians got to them. Because if they surrendered to the Russians, there was going to be hell to pay.

    Posted by luckynkl | December 14, 2006, 5:57 am
  5. the Russians did get to them. my mother’s first cousin (my second cousin?) gang-raped by Russian soldiers. maybe my grandmother too. a woman shot for crossing the street to get her children, seen by my family members, my uncle, a boy of 15, tortured, dragged behind a truck, and shot in the woods. all in and around the outskirts of Berlin.

    but, yeah, I do know what you mean, Lucky. I guess they got 1/2 of them?

    I can’t abide any freaking talk about the Holocaust being ‘exaggerated’, it makes my blood boil. my university had a ‘good’ (if one could ever use such a term) Holocaust memorial presentation this year- in the large open-air concourse area they had this little maze of boards you had to walk thru where they had photos and info about it, and always in the background, a stereo playing the sounds of a train. gave me shivers every time I walked by it. which was several times a day, sometime, many times that week. effective. but I couldn’t go in and look. I could never visit a place like Auschwitz (sp?). too many ghosts. too much pain. my sister and I, with my mother, CANNOT stand for any denial talk. we are part German. not Jewish. my second uncle was drafted and fought the Russians for the Nazis. my second aunt, still in freaking 1954!, had a photo of Hitler in her dining room (my mother refused to go back to visit her). my mom and I (and I think my sister too) have a sense of responsibility to *remember*. and to fight *any* denial talk.

    and, just as an aside, the poem Flanders Fields doesn’t actually contain the line you mentioned Heart, at least not the original. written on the battle field in 1915, it commemorates the First World War (and isn’t anti-war, at that).
    linky: http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/flanders.htm
    but your point still stands. great title too!

    Posted by Cinder | December 14, 2006, 7:11 am
  6. Yeah, I can’t watch films on the Holocaust either, Lucky. I couldn’t even watch Sophie’s Choice. Growing up, we had magazines and books with photographs of the survivors at Auschwitz and Dachau, and we saw the films of the concentration camps on television at home and later at school, and I will never forget the hideous stacks of corpses, the faces and bodies of the emaciated survivors. I read a book, too, when I was in grade school, that stuck with me, Treblinka, written from the perspective of a man who survived the concentration camp at Treblinka, and other books about the various resistance movements in Europe.

    So true about the Russians raping women, cinder. I went over to the boards to try to find that article I posted there a while back entitled something like, “They Raped Every Woman from 8 to 80,” about the way Russian soldiers went in and raped every random German girl and woman they could find after the victory of the Allies– always the bodies of women are the spoils of war. :””””( I couldn’t find it but it was a good article about a book written about this very thing. Those of us who came up in the 50s in the U.S. were shellshocked by the horrors of the Holocaust, seeing and knowing survivors as most of us have, or at least we’ve known people who had an aunt or uncle or relatives who died in concentration camps. And we shouldn’t forget all the other people who died there– gay and lesbian people, conscientious objectors and pacifists, people of color, people who were mentally ill.

    I so agree about a no-tolerance policy for Holocaust deniers. I know that in most nations in Europe it is illegal to deny the Holocaust and in fact, in the article I read, one guy from France, I think(?), had his presentation read by someone else at that horrible Deniers’ Conference because he didn’t want to get arrested. Of course then David Duke, who is the anti-christ as far as I’m concerned, gets up there and talks about how persecuted the Holocaust Deniers are and how they don’t have freedom of speech. Beyond nauseating.

    Sparklematrix, so true, too, about the deniers of the Burning Times and persecution of witches, so-called, through the ages, as well, and all the way until today in many cultures.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | December 14, 2006, 12:05 pm
  7. Yes, the Russians did get to the Germans, Cinder. In fact, they were first into Berlin. Not the U.S., like our boys would have us believe. My point is payback was going to be hell if Germany surrendered to the Russians. Far worse than what was already occurring. A 2nd holocaust. As Russia turned the tables and did unto the Germans as the Germans had done unto them. Russia was not into turning the other cheek and forgiving. They wanted blood. Since 80% of the casualties of any war are going to be women and children, guess who’s blood this was going to be written in? As women, once again, pay a debt they do not owe. Funny how the boys never want to talk about this holocaust. A holocaust which occurs during any and every war and during peace time as well. The torture, terrorism, enslavement and annihilation of women. But I guess in order to be counted, women would first have to be considered human. Which is why the Jews don’t win any brownie points in my book either. Jews don’t count or recognize women as human any more than the rest of the brotherhood does. As Abigail Adams put it, all men would be tyrants if they could. The Jews are no exception. Jewish men, Black men, Native American Men, Russian men, German men just got a taste of what women experience every day and have been experiencing for milleniums. But it’s only considered a horrifying crime and a holocaust when it’s done to men.

    Case in point, the recent shooting at the Amish school house. It was not considered an assault on girls/women. It was considered an assault on the Amish. Even tho the Amish boys had never been in any danger. It implies that these girls weren’t being viewed as anything more than property. The property of Amish men. Which impled Amish men had been wronged. Not girls/women.

    And yeah, Heart, ugh, “Sophia’s Choice.” I happened to turn on the tv set set right at the part where Meryl Streep has to choose between her son and her daughter. I just about lost it. That scene haunts me to this day even tho I promptly got up and turned my tv set off and have never watched a bit of that movie since. I later saw Meryl Streep being interviewed about that particular scene in the movie. She said she did the scene in one take. She wasn’t about to do it again.

    Posted by luckynkl | December 14, 2006, 2:16 pm
  8. omg “Sophie’s Choice” was awful. I saw that scene, too, Lucky, and started bawling. haunted me for a long time. I haven’t seen the whole movie, bits and pieces.. I seem to recall, tho, at the point where Sophie is telling her… lover? the male lead? about having to choose, he starts coming on to her, while she’s crying? going down on her, if I remember rightly. that made me want to kill him (or more accurately, the writers). seriously. ugh. hate that movie. but, like I said, I haven’t seen the whole thing, just walked into the tv room when my sister was watching it. after seeing about 20 minutes (?) I walked out, too shaken to continue. what a way to torture your female audience..

    but yes, I do get your point, Lucky. heh, it’s not like you need reminding of what happens to women in wartime, regardless of who the leaders of a nation officially surrender to.😛 I’m super tired and am responding mostly on instinct. (there’s a 4000 word paper I’m avoiding as we speak!). either way, women raped. by nazis on their way east, and by russians on their way west. and by husbands at home. like my abusive asshole grandfather. whom I had the pleasure of *never* meeting because mum was like “dude you are no father to me! out of my life!” (yay go mom \o/)

    David Duke! *giant ugh* That Canadian denier asshole was probably there too. and hell yeah, he’d be arrested (again) saying that crap in Canada. Ersnt Zundel? a teacher too. huh. “persecuted” Holocaust deniers? lol. oh dear. let me show what persecution is dumbass. :::grrr::::

    and so true about it needing to happen to men to be taken seriously as a crime against humanity. if it’s just happening to Group A (women) then it isn’t against humanity per se is it? (/sarcasm) altho when it happens to Group B (Jews) then it IS a crime against humanity and we all go *tsk tsk*

    (which is not to say that anti-semitism isn’t taken too lightly sometimes! I mean, I suspect there’s a kind of common surface recognition of racism=bad, but not deep enough to generate real change? as with racism against other people of colour, perhaps African Americans in particular? “oh racism is baaaad” they all say, while later on they whine “that’s not racist!! what are you talking about?? why is everything about raaaaace with you??” etc)

    ok I have no idea if I’m being at all clear!
    brain tired
    fire bad
    tree pretty

    um, I was also going to say something about the Burning Times where some have argued that it wasn’t produced by sexism because there are historical records of women calling other women witches. *rolls eyes* wow is systemic thinking hard for some people.

    and this post is way long, and I’m still stalling on this paper! and I probably got the tag thingies wrong too.

    Posted by Cinder | December 14, 2006, 7:27 pm
  9. As heard on Comedy Central (and I paraphrase):

    To generate funds, the White Supremists have in the works a book and television special. It’s called “It Didn’t Happen But If it Had, This is How We Would Have Done It.”

    In poor taste, yes, but funny as hell.

    Posted by CoolAunt | December 14, 2006, 10:43 pm
  10. I was also going to say something about the Burning Times where some have argued that it wasn’t produced by sexism because there are historical records of women calling other women witches. *rolls eyes* wow is systemic thinking hard for some people.

    9 to 11 million women were put to death as witches. Where is that in the history books?

    Men and women alike protest the numbers. I cite references, but the nayers just stick their fingers in their ears and sing tra-la-la. How silly of me to cite women. What would women know? Surely I can’t take anything a woman says seriously! Until a man says it, it just didn’t happen! Now get with the program, Luck.

    Posted by Luckynkl | December 15, 2006, 8:28 am
  11. a.) How can anyone deny the holocaust?

    and

    b.) How can anyone quibble over numbers?!?

    Posted by Claire | December 15, 2006, 1:10 pm
  12. Because they’re trying to distract from the people those numbers represent and turn the discussion to arithmatic?

    Sixty Minutes had the most devastating program on tonight about the Holocaust records that are finally being released. They’re scanning them in electronically so that one day they will be available to all.

    Posted by ginmar | December 18, 2006, 4:15 am
  13. This is another one where we have to just ignore them and get on with our lives. Iran just wants attention and we shouldn’t get so worked up by giving it to them. The entire world knows they are wrong, except for them. They’re like those white supremecists who swear the Holocaust never happened and no one pays attention to them, or like that group in Texas who still thinks the earth is flat. Pay it no heed, all they have are words and as long as we work together they won’t have anything more than words to use against the victims of the Holocaust or those who support them. Besides, they’re just ticked off that we gave the Holy Land back to its original owners, they’ll get over it eventually in a couple centuries if we’re lucky.

    Posted by girlwrestler | December 21, 2006, 11:32 am
  14. “Besides, they’re just ticked off that we gave the Holy Land back to its original owners”

    Oh, Really? Conservatives of all stripes seem to own history these days.

    Posted by Rich | December 22, 2006, 7:18 pm

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