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Women's Birthing Rights

Cho Sueng-Hui and the Virginia Tech Massacre: These are the Sons America Has Raised

Cho Seung-Hui
This is the young man who shot 32 people dead, then shot himself, and injured many more.  His name was Cho Seung-Hui.   He was born in South Korea and immigrated to the United States with his mom, dad and sister in 1992, when he was eight years old.  The family had a sponsor in the U.S., probably a relative, when they immigrated.  He was a permanent legal resident of the U.S.  His home was in Centreville, Virginia, a suburb of Washington, D.C., and his folks supported the family by running a dry cleaning business.  Neighbors say they were nice people, hardworking.  He had a sister who attended Princeton.  He was quiet, liked to play basketball. 

He was an English major whose writings and work were sometimes disturbing, troubling, to the point that at one point, his profs had referred him to Virginia Tech’s counseling service. 

 Emily Hilscher and Ryan “Stack” Clark, the first to be murdered.

Although early news reports speculated that the young woman student Cho first shot, Emily Hilscher, above, was a girlfriend or ex-girlfriend, more recent reports say she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and that there was no connection between she and Cho.  Cho shot Hilscher first, then Ryan “Stack” Clark, above, a resident advisor who was in Hilscher’s room, responding to reports of an outsider in the residence hall.

Cho went to his room then.  At some point, he wrote a suicide note in which he railed against “rich kids,” “debauchery,” “deceitful charlatans” on campus, and in which he blamed others for “forcing” him to kill.  According to some reports, Cho had recently behaved in ways which were menacing and violent, including setting fire in a dorm room and stalking women.  He had been medicated for depression.  When he died the words “Ismail Ax” were written in red ink on the inside of one of his arms.

Emily Hilscher was a freshman, which would mean she was 18 or 19, in all likelihood.  She was studying to be a veterinarian and had worked at a local vet’s office during the summer.  She loved animals and horses and went horseback riding.  She was known as “Pixie” on Myspace; there’s a certain sadness in what is written there.  She didn’t update her page often.

“Stack” Clark was a month away from receiving a bachelor’s degree in May and had pursued a triple major in English, Psychology and Biology with the goal, ultimately, of a graduate degree in psychology. He played in the school band, was friendly, charismatic, and was deeply respected by those who knew him.  He had a twin brother, Bryan, and a sister, Nadia,

After penning his suicide note, Cho went to Norris Hall, chained the doors from the inside, so no one could leave the building, and went through the building, shooting people methodically– professors, students, staff people.  Most of the students he shot were in a German class.  Finally, he shot himself.

Among those killed were Juan Ramón Ortiz, 26, a graduate student from Bayamón, Puerto Rico, Daniel Perez Cueva, 21,  of Peru studying international relations, Caitlin Hammaren, a sophomore and international studies and French major, Jarrett Lane of Narrows, Virginia, a senior and civil engineering major, Henry Lee of Roanoke, Va., a freshman and computer engineering major,  Leslie Sherman, a sophomore and history and international studies major; and Reema Samaha, a freshman from Centreville, Virginia.

Four faculty members died, that have been reported so far:  

  • German professor Christopher James Bishop, 35, known for his gentle manner and signature long hair;

Dr. Liviu Librescu

  • Engineering professor Liviu Librescu, 75, a Holocaust survivor who had emigrated from Israel and a 22-year veteran of Virginia Tech.  Librescu had confronted Cho when he tried to enter his solid mechanics classroom, attempting to hold the door shut to give students time to jump out the windows.
  • Kevin Granata, one of the nation’s top five researchers in biomechanics.  His life work had been trying to crack the code of cerebral palsy.   He was a professor of engineering science and mechanics.
  • G.V. Loganathan, 51, born in the southern Indian city of Chennai.  He had been at Virginia Tech since 1982. He won several awards for excellence in teaching, had served on the faculty senate and was adviser to about 75 undergraduate students.

Grieving Virginia Tech Women

People scramble to make sense of the killings.  Based on my reading so far, as is true of most violence, most murder, there is no sense to be made.  Murders, whether they are legal and have the blessing of empire, as in war, capital punishment, police shootings, and other acts of government sanctioned terrorism, or illegal, meaning whatever governments don’t order, authorize or sanction, are about the exercise of power, about brute force, about rage and resentment, spite, vindictiveness, fear, hatred, needing to be in control, needing the last word, needing the final say, even at the cost of one’s own life. 

It enrages and pains me to read the bigoted, racist responses to the murders, that the murders made sense because Cho was from a “communist” country (as one commenter attempted to comment), or that the “Ismail AX” written on Cho’s arm indicated he must be an “Islamic terrorist.”  There’s no reason to believe or even consider that, unless someone hates Muslims.  “Ismael” or “Ismail” or “Ishmael” is a figure common to three religions which share certain holy books:  Christians, Jews, Muslims.  Cho could have used that word or imagery for any number of reasons. 

There are no clues in the sex or race of the murdered persons; they are of all races, all ethnicities, both men and women.  One, like Cho, was South Korean.  And yet, understandably, a spokeswoman for the 500 Korean and Korean-American students at the 26,000-student Virginia Tech expressed fear of retaliation.  South Korean diplomats are on their way to Virginia Tech and have expressed grief and unbelief.  There has never been a known school shooting in South Korea, and private ownership of guns is banned there.

Our reactions and responses bring our weaknesses, racism, bigotry, and deep and grievous failings into stark relief.  We stampede to point fingers, to blame  “Islam” or “Islamic terrorists,” or “immigrants,” or “South Koreans,” or “Asians,” or the university for failing to prevent, or limit, the tragedy, or police, or violent television or video games.  We point out that it was said of Cho that he was that most anathematized and despised of young American men, the dreaded “loner,” read: “loser,” read:  “not like most,” read “other” and therefore eligible to be demonized and forgotten.  We wonder whether Emily Hilscher was his girlfriend;  a man killing his girlfriend or ex-girlfriend is, after all, however tragically and horribly, something at least we all understand, it is something familiar to us which makes a certain hideous “sense”.  We cast around.  Both Cho and Clark were English majors and seniors; did they know one another?  Had they had words, conflicts? Did the “loner” Cho resent the respected and “charismatic” Clark?  Enough to shoot him?   We rush to blame somebody — anybody —  so as to delay the day of reckoning which thoughtful and honest people among us know must come if there is to be any reason for us, as Americans, to have hope.  In fact, our country, America, is a violent and racist nation, sick with power.  We have been a people obsessed with pioneering and perfecting the theory and practice of wars, small and large, of might making right.  Our history is a history of seizing, taking, and killing because we could.  Our young men are born into and come of age in this sharkfeed of a milieu, and, whether legally or illegally, whether state-sanctioned or outlawed, most of them inevitably, in small or large ways, practice the terrorism they have experienced and known, which has been preached and modeled to them in a thousand different ways over all of their lives.

My heart goes out to the mothers, girlfriends, sisters, daughters, of the dead in particular, including the mother and sister of Cho Seung-Hui.  He was a little boy once in his mother’s arms, smiling, playing, smart and promising.  She devoted her life to cleaning the clothes of the comparatively wealthy to give him the best chance she could give him in life.  She gave all she had.

As to you fathers, leaders, patriarchs, manly men throughout this United States:  there will be more and more Chos and gangs of Chos and armies of Chos and nations of Chos so long as the search for someone other than you, yourselves, to blame continues.   You’re the men.  These young men are no anomaly.  These are the sons you have raised.

Link, Link, Link, Link, Link
New Advent:  “Ismael” in Catholic Dictionary
Eight Asians page
Emily Hilscher’s Myspace Page




59 thoughts on “Cho Sueng-Hui and the Virginia Tech Massacre: These are the Sons America Has Raised

  1. “In fact, our country, America, is a violent and racist, nation, sick with power. ”

    Cho was an American male.

    Posted by chasingmoksha | April 17, 2007, 7:49 pm
  2. Yep.

    And to the conservative Christian man who wanted to argue with what some of us have said here, that it is men who are violent, by complaining that men are also most victimized and targeted for violence: a clue for you. Yes, men are. And who targets and attacks and kills men? MEN. Men are violent and they are victims of violence– at the hands of other MEN. Violence is far and away a MALE issue. That’s the point that was being made.


    Posted by womensspace | April 17, 2007, 8:48 pm
  3. Heart, I’ve been lurking here for a while because I like the what you have to say. I’m sometimes disappointed, though, that your posts are mostly quotes with very little of your own voice. Despite the sad topic, I was very glad to read your own words today. You are a wonderful writer.

    Posted by Dr. K | April 17, 2007, 9:04 pm
  4. Thank you for this post. I agree with it, as a white male living in the inner city who sees the culture of violence’s effects upon the women, children, and men we cope with in our intentional community’s shelters ( ). My wife works at a second-stage housing complex we also run, mainly for single women with children.

    My only caution, which perhaps as a male I cannot help but offer, is that while maintaining your prophetic role, do try to remember that we, too, are human. Even when we’ve forgotten that fact. Men are often very confused by the mixed signals sent to them by our culture. We need the skills of community building our sisters often seem better at than we are. We are often alone, and some are driven mad by the solitary existence which — in a terrible lie — we are encouraged to view as being “strong.”

    I am not sure I would qualify as a feminist or not by your standards. (You can check my blog,, for a recent post where I wonder about my feminist qualifications.) But I do know one thing: we human beings, both female and male, need one another to survive as humans in a culture where so many others celebrate the inhumane.

    Thank you again for your post, which aided me in mourning further the senseless acts of yesterday.

    Jon Trott
    Jesus People USA / Chicago

    Posted by Jon Trott | April 17, 2007, 9:08 pm
  5. Hey, thanks, Dr. K and Jon. I got your e-mail from a while back, Jon, and appreciated it. I’m still going to respond in time. I think there has probably never been a time in history in which so many of us are so confused by the mixed signals we receive! I think that is true for men and women, boys and girls. And yes, we stand in such great need of community, all of us. So much of our problem is seeking it, or trying to make it, in ways that just increase our alienation from one another and even ourselves.

    Thanks again,


    Posted by womensspace | April 17, 2007, 9:25 pm
  6. thanks for your post on this Heart, it makes me so mad that the media immediately leaps on the band-wagon of “it was his ex-girlfriend that drove him to this” excuses excuses excuses, as you say, it’s nobody’s fault but their own, Cho is a product of a violent male culture.

    Posted by jo | April 17, 2007, 9:30 pm
  7. I think the reason this escalated into a blood bath is because the school and the police dismissed it as a ‘domestic’ incident. Just another woman being violently made to pay for disappointing or angering the patriarchy in some way.

    Whether or not it was a ‘domestic’ incident, that is the way those in authority read it and that coloured their response.

    We can all go home now. As one of the posters at IBTP commented:

    Domestic, a cozy word for MURDER.

    Posted by Pony | April 17, 2007, 10:11 pm
  8. “thanks for your post on this Heart, it makes me so mad that the media immediately leaps on the band-wagon of “it was his ex-girlfriend that drove him to this” excuses excuses excuses, as you say, it’s nobody’s fault but their own, Cho is a product of a violent male culture.”

    Jo, that’s exactly what I wanted to say about this too
    As soon as I heard on the news here in Australia rumours that there was a love triangle I was furious – of course, a womun is always to blame, always at the centre, always the justification or excuse for male violence. I was screaming at my television “If it was about a love triangle there were THREE people involved. Only ONE of them went on a rampage! AND IT WASN’T THE WOMUN!”

    Meanwhile, Australians are feeling quite superior at the moment. Ignoring all our own inherent violence and patting ourselves on the back for having such wonderful gun laws (since the Port Arthur masacre of 1996). How we love to distance ourselves. The fact is, we may have better gun control, but we produced the Port Arthur murderer just like the US produced Cho. And both our patriarchal nations produce many more violent men who murder, beat, rape, and terrorise simply because they can.

    Posted by Sazz | April 17, 2007, 11:09 pm
  9. “These are the sons you have raised.”

    Yes indeed, and I am sure Pony is right about “domestic” violence not being taken seriously. Although a colleague at VA Tech who was not on campus yet for the first shooting, but would have been for the second, says the school did notify her and as many as it could to stay away.

    Posted by profacero | April 18, 2007, 12:07 am
  10. Past day I have been thinking of going on a shooting spree myself. There are a lot of South Koreans in Gwinnett. But this article cools me some. It is a good article.

    Posted by Matthew Dickinson | April 18, 2007, 12:18 am
  11. I’m seeing a lot of protest against America’s gun culture, and while that’s certainly part of the problem (although I wonder if suicide bombing would become more widespread if access to guns was decreased), the focus on gun control still removes attention from the actual cause…a man decided he had the right to kill because he was thwarted.

    As ginmar said about rape, “You could have 100 stumbling drunk women in a room, and if you didn’t have a rapist, they wouldn’t be raped.” To commit murder requires a murderer.

    This man decided he had a right to kill. He was entitled to kill. Denied a firearm, he would, most likely have killed whomever he could reach with his hands, or a knife, or fire. That is the ultimate problem.

    Posted by Miranda | April 18, 2007, 12:38 am
  12. Thank you for this. None of the other stories on this event really sunk in, I got caught up in the political/ethical things being said, but for some reason this post really hit me.

    Posted by Erik | April 18, 2007, 1:21 am
  13. The media will recast the DOMESTIC VIOLENCE aspect into some other motive, because if we admitted this kid murdered 32 people because he had an ENTITLEMENT COMPLEX over a FEMALE, then those rotten women’s rights groups would turn this into another Montreal Massacre.

    And we can’t have that.

    So let’s distract the masses with a rumor about possible gun control.

    No, let’s talk about the real issue, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

    “The girlfriend cheated on him and he decided to go on a rampage,” Karina Porushkevich, 18, told the Herald. In the aftermath, Ms Porushkevich saw a girl being wheeled out of the dorm with “blood all over her”.

    “They had a big quarrel and he shot her … then the RA [resident assistant, Ryan Clark, 22] came, and he shot the RA,” another student, Chen Chia-hao, told Taiwanese television.

    The killer behind America’s deadliest mass shooting had come to the attention of police as early as 2005, the Guardian learned yesterday. Cho Seung-hui was revealed to be a troubled loner of South Korean descent who left behind a disturbing note of grievances against his university saying: “You caused me to do this.”
    Police investigating the Virginia Technical College massacre, which left 33 dead, mainly students, blamed Cho, a fourth-year English student who lived on the campus, for earlier incidents ranging from stalking women to setting fire to a dormitory. The police suspect he was also behind persistent recent bomb threats.

    Professor Lucinda Roy, a former head of the English department, said Cho had caused alarm in 2005 for taking illicit mobile phone photographs of women from under the desks and writing an essay brimming with rage.

    Dr Bill Knocke, head of the civil engineering faculty whose staff and students were among the dead, said he understood that Cho had gone on Monday morning to the dormitory of a female student, Emily Hilscher, 19, who was not his girlfriend but with whom he may have been infatuated. He confronted her and shot her. He also murdered her mentor and fellow student, Ryan Clark, 22, who tried to intervene.

    His family runs a dry cleaning business and he has a sister who attended Princeton University, according to the source.,,2059726,00.html

    A student who attended Virginia Tech last fall provided obscenity- and violence-laced screenplays that he said Cho wrote as part of a playwriting class they both took. One was about a fight between a stepson and his stepfather, and involved throwing of hammers and attacks with a chainsaw. Another was about students fantasizing about stalking and killing a teacher who sexually molested them.

    “When we read Cho’s plays, it was like something out of a nightmare. The plays had really twisted, macabre violence that used weapons I wouldn’t have even thought of,” former classmate Ian MacFarlane, now an AOL employee, wrote in a blog posted on an AOL Web site. He said he and other students “were talking to each other with serious worry about whether he could be a school shooter.”

    “We always joked we were just waiting for him to do something, waiting to hear about something he did,” said another classmate, Stephanie Derry. “But when I got the call it was Cho who had done this, I started crying, bawling.”,0,6682911.story?coll=chi-homepagepromo440-fea&?track=sto-relcon

    Posted by Alicia | April 18, 2007, 2:04 am
  14. Oh, and I owe Pony an apology, because I was an asshat to her when I had no right or reason, and I never came back here to do so.

    You’ve probably forgotten Pony, but I haven’t, and I’m sorry. First time I ever saw a post of yours I went off the deep end, and you’re much too nice and helpful for that.

    Posted by Alicia | April 18, 2007, 2:08 am
  15. In the play authored by Cho that concerns the fight between the stepson and stepfather, the stepson accuses the stepfather of being a pedophile and of having killed the stepson’s true father. The play in its entirety has been posted at Smoking Gun.

    I would like to know what was going on in Cho’s life from infancy to age 8, when he was in South Korea. I would also like to know who *exactly* sponsored his family’s entry into the U.S. The reason I am wondering about these things is that the CIA has a strong presence in South Korea, and there are a lot of Moonie/CIA/spook linkages, which Mae Brussell and others have nicely documented. Pedophilia-rape is also a standard ‘breaking method’ used in mind-control ‘training’.

    Cho’s actions, especially his ‘trained hit-man’ expertise (right down to his black-ops dress, fake bomb-threats to assess police response, chaining of doors, and so on) look to me like he had a *lot* of military-type training somewhere. Some have suggested that he could have learned his skills via video games, but all vid-games do is improve reflex. One has to handle and shoot firearms a lot to get used to the kick when firing, etc. The shooting accuracy Cho showed takes practice with live ammo.

    Given the subject matter of the play that’s been posted, along with the ‘simmering rage’ that people described in him before this event happened, it makes me think that he might have been a mind-control subject who was beginning to break some of his programming. (Either that, or he was ‘set to simmmer’ in advance in order to provide a pat a ‘lone nut-case’ media conclusion.)

    I have to say that the timing of this event stinks on ice: we have Gonzales up for a hearing, 9/11 starting to unravel, people fuming about the clusterf*ck that is Iraq, people yelling for presidential impeachment, *millions* of missing White House emails being looked into, and all of a sudden, here comes a made-to-order, black-ops-style shooter who mows down 32 people and then himself (another mind-control indicator). Now the Gonzales hearing is on hold because of the ‘tragedy’, and everyone has zoned in on it instead of Rosie O’Donnell’s 9/11 ruckus-raising (for which I applaud her, by the way…)

    I think the ‘Ismail AX’ on Cho’s arm was either his ‘killer persona’s’ name or his trigger, and I think it was selected so as to provide a phony Middle Eastern terrorist link, if Cho was ever ‘needed’ for that purpose by his handlers. I will be very interested to read the rest of Cho’s writings, to see if there is any mention made of the name, and if so, in what context.

    Heart is right when she says it’s ‘war’ on us. We live in a terrorist state which can and does snatch and brutalize children (ever really think about possible reasons why it is so hard to get coordinated law enforcement priority-focus on missing children?) in order to turn them into Manchurian Candidate killers, and then uses them without conscience on 32 innocent people to generate a ‘news distraction’.

    We all need to keep asking ‘Mae’s Question’: Who benefits? In this case, who benefits by a high-body-count killing-spree by a non-white gunman with ‘weird stuff’ scrawled on his arm plastered non-stop all over the media?

    Mae Brussell (one of my abiding Hera’s/Shero’s) would have torn this thing to shreds.

    Posted by akkarri | April 18, 2007, 6:32 am
  16. On the theme that this was no anomaly, Earl Ofari Hutchinson wrote an article about the epidemic of violence on college campuses.

    Massacre Exposes America’s Dirty Campus Secret

    There were two monstrous tragedies at Virginia Tech. The first was the colossal shock and horror of the murder of 33 people. The second was that as monstrous as the rampage was, it is only the most extreme form of the violence that has quietly torn many campuses apart. The exhaustive white paper on campus violence issued by the American College Health Association in 2005 was an early warning that campus violence is a far bigger problem than many campus officials are willing to admit. The report found that many campuses are not the safe and idyllic bastion of student tranquility and peace that campus administrators like to present to prospective students, parents, alumni, donors and the general public. The white paper ticked off a high rate of rapes, assaults, physical harassment, taunting, stalking, and suicides that plague many college campuses.

    Posted by Aletha | April 18, 2007, 7:08 am
  17. Although tackling gun ownership will not stop people doing crazy things, easy access to guns makes further massacres like this inevitable.
    Yes there are underlying fault lines in society which teach young men that violence is acceptable, but if we keep the tools of destruction out of their hands than blood letting on this scale is made significantly more difficult.

    Cho Sueng-hui was obviously disturbed and crazy, but so is a system that allows widescale access to firearms so any nut with a grievance can go to a local supermarket and purchase a handgun to exact his murderous revenge.

    Gun control will not stop people going crazy, but it might stop them taking innocents along for the ride with them.

    Posted by Corneilius | April 18, 2007, 11:18 am
  18. We all need to keep asking ‘Mae’s Question’: Who benefits? In this case, who benefits by a high-body-count killing-spree by a non-white gunman with ‘weird stuff’ scrawled on his arm plastered non-stop all over the media?

    So true. I’m not familiar with Mae Brussels, Akkari, or at least her name doesn’t ring a bell– any links/recommended reading? I have wondered, too, over Cho’s expertise with guns and even his apparent comfort level in just strolling into a store and buying two of them. He also filed off the serial numbers. This is stuff that “looks” easy to Americans who watch television action shows all the time, but there’s nothing easy about it. My first ex forced (literally forced) me to buy a gun because he was a convicted felon and could not legally buy or own a firearm. He then forced me to hold it, load and unload it, etc., which just about killed me because I am a lifelong pacifist/nonviolent type. (And I never touched the thing again, after that one time. But, slight diversion, but I still get enraged about this every time I think about it, though it happened 32 years ago and my ex died 10 years ago, when we were divorcing, in his papers he denied owning a gun and said it was mine and I bought it! Abusers.) Anyway, you do wonder where Cho got the training that allowed for this poise and comfort level with weapons and shooting.

    I also had that odd thought about the “Ismail AX” thing, that it was deliberately written there to create confusion/conspiracy theories or whatever.

    Cornelius, so true re access to guns in this country. Thank the goddess I moderate, though, say a single word about guns and your blog will get MOBBED by NRA types.


    Posted by womensspace | April 18, 2007, 11:54 am
  19. My question to you after reading most of your post is what are your thoughts about gun control? I have listened to the news reports, but have not read a newspaper about this, nor have I read a lot of blog post about this either, but I do agree with some of what you have written here. There is definitley no sense to random acts of violence, just a lot of senseless bloodshed.

    Posted by bluecollar49 | April 18, 2007, 12:50 pm
  20. Everyone’s knee-jerk reaction is to blast the police and the gun lobby. Although I don’t support uncontrolled gun access I wonder what the outcome would have been if a couple of the Professors had gun permits.

    I think the real issue is the failure of the University, and society as a whole, to address Mental Health and Substance Abuse issues. The University gives us the impression that this young man had a history of mental health issues, anti-depressive medications, alarming writings, being a loner, haveing been referred to counseling by University Staff (and being denied help because he wasn’t actively ‘suicidal or homicidal’), being a loner and having access to handguns AND a bullet-proof vest. Instead of a purely technical answer involving cell phone notifications to ‘run-and-hide’ we need to start addressing counseling services for those truly in need. I have worked on Campuses that have effectively addressed major concerns such as these.

    The University could very easily mandate counseling services for anyone referred by a Faculty member. Are we willing to pay the bill in order to avoid a repeat performance by others that are still going under treated? Or will this tradgedy be in vein.

    Posted by Ron Grossman | April 18, 2007, 1:02 pm
  21. We’re looking for an easy target to blame for our woes, and it’s easy to blame guns, but guns have been a part of America’s culture since its birth. People didn’t go into schools and open fire 200 years ago, or 100 years ago, or even 60 years ago, even tho there was greater access to guns and there were more guns in more homes during these time periods. I’m aware too that there are countries that have as much or even greater gun access and ownership than the U.S. and these countries have none of the problems that the U.S. has.

    In lieu of this, all I can say is, nice try, but no cigar in blaming guns for Amerika’s problems. It just doesn’t hold water. At best, it only serves to distract from and deny the root of the problem. And limiting access to guns or banning guns won’t resolve anything because guns aren’t the problem to begin with.

    Heart starts to get at the root when she brings up the issue of how Amerika raises its sons. We live in a culture which is totally obsessed with manhood and masculinity. No other country is as obsessed with it as Amerika is. And so the root of the problem begins with Amerika’s value system. How Amerika raises its sons and indoctrinates its males into a cult of greatly exaggerated masculinity. Begin there, and the rest of it starts to fall neatly into place. From homophobia to pornography to domestic violence to war. It all stems from this cult of greatly exaggerated masculinity. Which in turn breeds a society full of sociopaths, who have no guilt, conscience or remorse and no respect for life. Where might makes right and violence is the solution. Men didn’t get to rule by being the fastest or strongest or smartest species on the planet. There are plenty of species faster, stronger and smarter. Nah, how men got to rule was by being the most murderous mfers this world has ever seen. And that’s where we need to begin. Because males weren’t born this way. They were raised to be this way.

    Posted by Luckynkl | April 18, 2007, 1:20 pm
  22. Most of the guns he had are not allowed in Canada, according to a news source.

    I support strict registration and vetting of who can buy, types of guns, number, amount of amunition, and only guns used for food hunts. I support permits for ANY transportation of moving of guns, registered, strict storage, and destroying any gun ‘collection’ which doesn’t fit this. ANY collection.

    I grew up in a gun culture. I spent my childhood, youth, and adult years in a gun culture. Men who hunt for food (not collecting dead animals for their walls, or the ‘sport’ of killing baited trapped animals) also support the above.

    Posted by Pony | April 18, 2007, 2:48 pm
    Just check this link out and check the scraps this is what is happening.

    Dragging issue out of way.
    Indian media channel found out this profile which is apparently a fake one, and cooked a story and aired it on the TV. This was Severe disappointment. Shameful, it is.

    Well the solution of the problem is not stricter gun laws, or better security or curbing domestic violence.
    The only solution out here is changing mentality. An average american today is nothing but a living machine, which works monday to friday and retires on weekends.

    Theres no social aspect left. Americans are helpful people, but do not enjoy strong social ties. If they are not socially well attached with their parents, let alone the realtives and the neighbours. These things, make the person hollow deep inside. a feeling of loneliness seeps in, the person becomes weak at mind and succumbs to every emotion that he comes across. This emotion can be sex(Rape), Violence(Killings), Death(Suicide), Arrogance (Rude Behaviour) and many more.

    I’ll tell you something. Am an indian and have lived here till this piece of time. I have seen people in severe trouble: physical, mental and emotional. But have seen most of them emerging out victorious in all the situations. you know why? just because they know, “I aint alone, there are people with me” while my american counterparts start feeling insecure very soon and succumb to problems.

    I am not boastin about my country or my people, there are exceptions everywhere, but still what america now needs to understand is that its high time now. America has enjoyed lots of materialistic pleasures, they now have to turn back time and start understanding that there are things, or rather people above this materialistic life.

    In India(gujarati language) we say “manvi manav thaay to ghanu ”
    “If a human being becomes a human being, its more than enough for now”

    This is my first post. Sorry if i hurt someone’s feelings but this is what is feel and so i expressed.


    Posted by jdthakkar | April 18, 2007, 4:17 pm
  24. “People didn’t go into schools and open fire 200 years ago, or 100 years ago, or even 60 years ago,”

    Yes, they — men — did.

    It even happened 2000 years ago: a boxer went into a school building and collapsed the building supports (a la Samson) killing all the kids inside.

    Posted by Rich | April 18, 2007, 4:18 pm
  25. Lucky,

    You said:

    “Because males weren’t born this way. They were raised to be this way.”

    Then how do you explain extreme violence and war-like behaviour amongst males, across cultures, most of whom have not been aware of each other?

    Where did the global culture of male violence *come from*?

    Did it fall out of the sky?

    Posted by Mary Sunshine | April 18, 2007, 4:23 pm
  26. Exactly, Mary Sunshine. As much as it apparently pains people to admit it, something’s amiss in the male physiology. I’m not so sure one can ever entirely socialize the brutality out of them. I think the best we can ever hope for is a sex-segregated society.

    Posted by justicewalks | April 18, 2007, 6:22 pm
  27. Quick response to Heart:

    Mae Brussell was a daughter of the Magnin family– the same Magnins who founded/owned the I. Magnin stores. She was a Stanford-educated philosophy major, who married just before she graduated, and she considered herself ‘just an ordinary Southern California housewife’ until Kennedy was assassinated.

    There is a website called which has biographical info on her, and has many of her writings posted as well. She eventually became characterized as the ‘doyenne of conspiracists’, but the moniker didn’t really do justice to her patience, ability to mine evidence, and her skill at discovering linkages between events that, on the surface, were made to look unrelated.

    Something that she would be doing, were she still alive, would be keeping a tight eye on Cho’s family. Not only would a South Korean linkage raise a big red flag for her (as well as Cho’s ‘professional shooter’ expertise), she would have been watching to see if they did the ‘birds of passage’ or ‘migratory birds’ thing: quietly ‘fold up their tents’ and decamp from the immediate scene soon after the event (becoming unavailable for ‘further questioning’ in the process). There are several articles on the site which talk about the phenomenon in connection with spook-sponsored hits, so I won’t go into that here. She would also be zeroing in on the police who were on the scene and their actions– did they act decisively to stop Cho, or did they subtly (or not so subtly) aid and abet his agenda?

    It is not at all ‘obvious’ to me that Cho was a ‘crazy lone gunman’. The shooting expertise he showed is made, not born. Using Cho to foster a general belief that we ‘simply’ live in a ‘generally violent mileau’ is a very nice cover-story: it enables the people who created Cho to use the idea of ‘general, non-organized violence/child victimization’ to snatch and create more people like Cho. We come back to the question of who benefits– I see direct benefit to government-types who are on the media-hot-seat right now over 9/11, Iraq, torture at Gitmo, etc., and I see black-ops spook M.O. in Cho’s military-mission-style hit skills.

    Posted by akkarri | April 18, 2007, 7:05 pm
  28. Akkari said:
    ***the CIA has a strong presence in South Korea, and there are a lot of Moonie/CIA/spook linkages***

    The CIA also has a strong presence in the United States. It is an American agency, but you don’t automatically think “CIA” when a white American male goes on a shooting spree which distracts from other important news. Why think it of a South Korean? Is that not a bit racist? It would cause people to look upon Korean Americans in the same way many have been looking upon Muslim Americans since 9/11, in the way many looked upon Japanese Americans during World War II. (But not German Americans or Italian Americans, they’re white, ya know?). The evidence is that Cho was an entitled male. I see no reason to think he was a mind control subject just because he was a South Korean unless and until there is evidence that points to that.

    Posted by Branjor | April 18, 2007, 7:37 pm
  29. Great writeup!

    Posted by Yong Hwee | April 18, 2007, 8:29 pm
  30. beautifully written

    Posted by M | April 18, 2007, 10:21 pm
  31. Cho’s parents have been hospitalized in shock. 😦 I found this about them:

    Seoul – The family of the gunman in the Virginia Tech massacre were living a tough life in South Korea before they emigrated to the United States in search of the American dream, news reports said Wednesday.

    Cho Seung-Hui was a “very quiet and well-behaved” boy when he lived with his family in a modest rented apartment in northern Seoul before the family left for the United States in 1992, their former landlord said.

    “I was just shocked when I was visited and told by (South Korean) police on Tuesday that the gunman was a boy who used to live in my apartment,” Lim Bong-Ae, 67, was quoted as saying by Yonhap news agency.

    “I remember him as a quiet and well-behaved boy. I just can’t believe he did it,” she said.

    ‘Very quiet and well-behaved boy’

    Cho and his parents and sister lived in the cheapest basement unit of Lim’s three-storey apartment block in Changdong district for about a year and were “not so well-off,” she said.

    “One day, the parents told me they were moving out even before the contract for rent expired,” she said.

    “I asked where they were going and they answered they found their life here too hard and were emigrating to the United States, even though they had no acquaintances there,” she said.

    Cho’s parents, who run a dry cleaning business, were reportedly hospitalised for shock after their 23-year-old student son killed 32 students and staff before committing suicide Monday.

    President Roh Moo-Hyun on Wednesday offered the American people condolences “from the bottom of my heart” following the deadliest school shooting in US history.

    Other South Koreans expressed shock and fears of a racially motivated backlash against their compatriots living in the US.


    I just posted an article written by a young woman entitled, “Cho Was Like Me.” She says that like her family, Cho’s family were devout Christians. Since there were no relatives in the U.S., I’m wondering whether a Christian family or church might have sponsored them.

    Akkari– that’s a lot to think about and digest but thanks for posting it, because it’s worth thinking about. If there was CIA involvement in any way in this family’s coming to the U.S. or whatever, then the CIA would be at least partially responsible for this massacre, just as the CIA has been responsible for so many atrocities and so much terrorism over decades now. That’s how I read Akkari’s comments, Branjor– we don’t think “CIA” in the U.S. because CIA operatives aren’t a consideration here in the same way they are in some foreign countries which the U.S. believes to be strategic to U.S. interests for whatever reason, and where the U.S. gets busy doing its dirty work.


    Posted by womensspace | April 18, 2007, 11:11 pm
  32. hello thinking world. womansspace identifies a very relevant fact about young Cho. his parents ran a dry cleaning business. how much exposure to the toxic chemicals of dry cleaning did Cho have? was he poisoned by his enviroment? the poisoned body moved by the toxic mind…?

    Posted by ?maybwhy? | April 19, 2007, 12:28 am
  33. I’m not so much a believer in conspiracy theories, mostly since the US government does an enormous amount of horrible things right out in the open. Hell, Bush brags about the terrible things our government does or tries to provoke (“bring it on.”) I think it’s pretty unlikely that this is some CIA plot- hell, the Bush Administration can’t stand the CIA because he doesn’t think they’re sufficiently right-wing.

    From what I understand about this case, it seems that you combine a guy with a severe and largely untreated mental illness, relatively easy access to powerful guns, a culture that says it’s admirable for men to lash out violently under some circumstances, and a university that failed to take his potential for violence seriously, you get what happened.

    Posted by Metal Prophet | April 19, 2007, 1:55 am
  34. Branjor, you raise a good point.

    The CIA will use the ‘race card’ if it suits them to. A white killer can’t help them here if they are trying to promote a ‘terror by foreign nationals’ reason for keeping things like the illegal surveillance of the Patriot Act going.

    The other thing the CIA does, which is the nth degree of reprehensible in my book, is that they ‘farm out’ a lot of their ‘training facilities’ to foreign countries, in part, because it is easier to sequester their English-speaking pawns in a non-English speaking country. If they should escape, they can’t get ready help, because they don’t speak the language. Also, some of the foreign countries they like to operate in have things like weak child-protection laws, etc. South Korea is one of the places (along with several locations in South America) where they’ve got facilities set up which can avoid discovery and ‘awkward questions’ about what goes on ‘inside the barbed-wire fences’ because they are NOT in the U.S. proper, and are thus ‘out of the area of jurisdiction’ of U.S laws.

    Personally, I would like to see South Korea and its people NOT have to put up with the CIA. I view the CIA presence there as the racist imposition of U.S. white male political will on Asian South Korea. The CIA also did the people of South Korea no favors when it pumped money (for the purposes of laundering ‘extra-curricular’ CIA cash) into the Moonies. Sun Myung Moon has also made hefty donations to the campaign funds of several Republican candidates for high office in the U.S. without most people even knowing that a foreign national was making oversized, illegal donations to U.S. politicians. The irony of it is that it was probably laundered CIA funds he was doing it with. Also of importance is the fact that Bush the elder was the head of the CIA at around the time that Moon was being funded. I am not sure whether Daddy Bush was chief spook when Moon was attempting to distribute his ‘xtian largesse’ to Republican candidates– I will have to brush up on my timelines a bit– but this is why a South Korean shooter *in particular* looks suspicious to me.

    My point is, it is not the South Koreans’ fault that they are a CIA feifdom. Cho worries me because he A) was *specifically* non-white, B) he was *specifically* from South Korea, C) he apparently had military-level firearms proficiency, D) he had a ‘generic islamic’ name stenciled on his arm, and E) he racks up a high-body-count incident at the precise moment when a media-distraction is needed most by the current administration. If we ran this all through an insurance actuarial program, I am sure the odds against this happening in *this particular way* would be astronomically against it occurring.

    This is indeed a violent act of patriarchy. It is the U.S. political patriarchy attempting to cover its ass now that 9/11 is starting to visibly unravel in the media. The students and profs at VA Tech– black, white, jew, female, male, etc.– were all expendable for ‘the cause’, as was CIA-asset Cho, as are you, me and everyone else you know and love.

    And I’ll say it again: keep an eye on Cho’s family. How utterly perfect that both his parents have been miraculously whisked off to the hospital and are now sequestered from people with inconvenient questions. Excuse my cynicism here, but I cannot remember another school shooting (and unfortunately, I remember a lot of them) where *both* parents of the perpetrator were so completely removed from public scrutiny so quickly after the incident. The first report is that they *both* tried to commit suicide??!!?? The second report is no, they are both in the hospital, suffering from ‘collapse’. I’m worried: it’s very easy to silence ‘loose ends’ once they have been isolated.

    If what I suspect might be going on IS actually going on then I expect one of two things: Cho’s family will either quickly decamp for South Korea (with the tacit blessing of the U.S. government), or they will be ‘suicided’.

    I will close by saying it would be nice to be wrong about all this, but I don’t think I am. Keep an eye on his family.

    Posted by akkarri | April 19, 2007, 3:36 am
  35. I was watching President Bush’s comments on the Virginia Tech shootings and I know our President can say some stupid things but to say…..

    Mr Bush told a memorial service the victims “did nothing to deserve their fate”.
    In a heartfelt speech, Mr Bush said they were “simply in the wrong place at the wrong time” and that they left behind a “grieving nation”.

    How could they have been in the wrong place at the wrong time when THEY WERE AT SCHOOL….so being at school to better themselves and become a productive citizen in Bush’s society was the WRONG place?

    Posted by violet | April 19, 2007, 3:50 am
  36. Cho was not illegal, and even if he was, what are you saying, Violet? That people from other countries are more violent than Americans are?

    [I edited out the comment you were responding to, chasingmoksha, sorry for any confusion for anyone. I’m trying to not go to having every single comment go into moderation, but that means stuff gets through that shouldn’t occasionally, like this comment I just edited out. Heart]

    Posted by chasingmoksha | April 19, 2007, 3:55 am
  37. Mary Sunshine wrote:


    You said:

    “Because males weren’t born this way. They were raised to be this way.”

    Then how do you explain extreme violence and war-like behaviour amongst males, across cultures, most of whom have not been aware of each other?

    Hmm. I thought Lucky just did explain precisely that. The non-warlike cultures were all conquered, and the cycle of violence has been building on itself ever since.

    Posted by Aletha | April 19, 2007, 4:48 am
  38. Hi, found this place from’s front page.


    That sounds way too far-fetched. Yes, the timing is odd considering current events but have you heard about the video that was just released? The shooter idolized the Columbine boys and this week is the anniversary of that massacre. I think that’s all there is to it.

    This all is just too sad.

    Posted by Anonymous | April 19, 2007, 6:51 am
  39. Violet said: How could they have been in the wrong place at the wrong time when THEY WERE AT SCHOOL….so being at school to better themselves and become a productive citizen in Bush’s society was the WRONG place?

    I hate Bush as much as the next gal, but really he was emphasizing what you’re saying. In the wrong place at the wrong time is used to describe something senseless and unpredictable without any understandable cause, i.e. “We may never know – they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.”

    / Idiosyncratic Exploration

    Posted by gingermiss | April 19, 2007, 9:35 am
  40. Then how do you explain extreme violence and war-like behaviour amongst males, across cultures, most of whom have not been aware of each other?

    Where did the global culture of male violence *come from*?

    Did it fall out of the sky?

    We don’t call patriarchy the global paradigm for nothing. I mean, when I researched religions 3 or 4 years ago, the statistics were that there were 3 billion Christians and 2 billion Muslims. And there’s only like 6 billion people on the planet! Would you tell me there’s something inherent in human physiology which makes one a natural Christian or a Muslim? Of course not. Human beings don’t live by instinct. Human beings live by belief systems.

    I don’t claim to be a Goddess and all-knowing and all-wise, but I do believe this is a pretty big clue. Because next to sex, I can think of no bigger hierarchal divider of human beings, or one which as lasted as long, as religion. Race, color, class, and nationality don’t even come close. Religion is global. Where did religion come from? Did it fall out of the sky? Nah, Christianity, Islam and Judaism all have the same roots and originated in the same place. And then spread like a global virus. The word “patriarch” in fact originates with these religions. Is that a big clue or what? Then think about this. More people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason history. Add up all the clues and what do you come up with?

    Well, one thing’s for sure. If radical feminists are going to go to the root of it all, we’re going to find religion as a key root in the origins of patriarchy, male violence and the oppression of women.

    I’ll leave you with something to think about. Something that’s on every main street corner in Amerika and you’ve probably see every day of your life. The symbol of Christianity. The cross. Have you ever looked at it closely and really thought about it? How closely it resembles the symbol for woman? With its head cut off! Or is it just the womb that’s been cut out? Think it’s just coincidence? **chuckle** I don’t believe in coincidences. But I think it’s interesting how no one seems to notice it. How do we miss that elephant standing in the middle of our livingrooms? The subliminal and pervasive message that we’re bombarded with and subjected to daily? The symbolism of the killing of the goddess. Woman. And it’s very celebration of it held high for all the world to see. On every main street corner in America.

    So did the cult of patriarchy just fall out of the sky? Nah. But it’s constructed to reach up to the sky. You can’t miss it if you have eyes that see. But even if you’re oblivious to it, the subliminal message registers on the brain.

    It began to register on my brain when I went into a church one day. I hadn’t been in a church in many, many moons. At least 3 decades. I was attending a 75th birthday there. (No, not mine! :P). To say I felt uncomfortable, was putting it mildly. The priests would’ve began exorcising me on the spot had they looked at me more closely. Instead, I went off into a cubicle set up as a playroom with my roommate’s 4 year old niece. They had these foam symbols in there to stick on the wall so we began playing with them. As I held a cross in my hands, I began to notice what was missing. As a feminist, it became downright obvious to me. It was a woman’s symbol. And what it was missing was the circle. I proceeded to add the circle to every cross I could get my hands on in the church. My roommate’s 4 year old niece thought it was a fun game. Especially when I told her that the added circle made it us. Females. Girls. Women.

    I wish I had been a fly on the wall when the priests and church staff went into the church the next day and saw all their beloved goddess-killing crosses turned into women symbols and the resurrection of the goddess complete. At least in that church. No doubt an exorcism had to be performed and holy water sprinkled throughout. 😛 What’s even more amusing, is no one who was present there when I did it, noticed. That’s how truly subliminal the message really is.

    Posted by Luckynkl | April 19, 2007, 2:01 pm
  41. It seems the NRA types have got through Heart. From somone outside of the U.S.A. living in a country with quite strong gun controls, I can only say that the American obsesion with guns appears quite bizzare. Its like trying to tell an alcoholic that they have a drink problem, everyone who cares about them can see whats happening, but the alcoholic will come up with all kinds of excuses to carry on drinking.
    Don’t get me wrong we do have a problem with gun crime here, but this is entirly the work of criminals. You simply do not get the average family having access to firearms in any shape or form. I am in my mid 40’s and the only firearms I have ever seen were on the hips of the specialist firearm contol officers who make up a very small percentage of the police here, and they have only appeared in the last 10 years or so. None of my family or friends own a gun or feel the need too.
    After the Dunblane tradgedy in 1996, caused by another loner who was a member of a gun club, the governememt made it almost imposible to own a weapon. Our Olympic shooting team have to travel out of the country to train. Since then, fingers crossed, we have not had any of these mass shootings which seem to be an almost annual occurance in the U.S.

    Posted by Corneilius | April 19, 2007, 2:03 pm
  42. As to you fathers, leaders, patriarchs, manly men throughout this United States: there will be more and more Chos and gangs of Chos and armies of Chos and nations of Chos so long as the search for someone other than you, yourselves, to blame continues. You’re the men. These young men are no anomaly. These are the sons you have raised.

    Exactly. How much longer until people WAKE UP?

    Posted by una | April 19, 2007, 9:29 pm
  43. ***The non-warlike cultures were all conquered, and the cycle of violence has been building on itself ever since.***

    ***Would you tell me there’s something inherent in human physiology which makes one a natural Christian or a Muslim?***

    Of course, this does not explain why men made their cultures “war-like” to begin with. War-like cultures did not just drop out of the sky and then proceed simply to program their gentle, innocent members to become rapists/murderers/warmongers and to conquer all the “non war-like” cultures. It also doesn’t explain why all the war-like, conquering cultures are male if women are not inherently any “better” than them. In that case the world would have evolved into a mixture of male and female conquering, war-like cultures.There must also be something about those who would construct such religions as Christianity and Islam in the first place in a world which started out completely free of them.

    Posted by Branjor | April 20, 2007, 12:35 am
  44. Branjor,

    You are bang on.

    Why are women so resistant to acknowledging this?

    Feminism will have no traction until we *proceed* from this understanding instead of avoiding it.

    Until then, feminism will remain the “say it isn’t so” movement.

    Or the “now that I’ve explained it to you, and complained about it, will you please stop?” movement.


    Posted by Mary Sunshine | April 20, 2007, 1:41 am
  45. Luckynkl, I laughed so hard about the Mother-reclaimed crosses, I almost wet myself! Your actions were nothing short of inspired!!! You are also giving me ideas…

    Additionally, I want to say that I agree with your ‘live by belief systems’ observation. To me, patriarchal religions are nothing more than institutionalized submission/crowd control for a clique of parasitizing males– kings, popes, and what-have-you. Systems that used to have some spiritual content have had that content manipulated or gutted for the sole purpose of catering to the whims and desires of the men running the show, and people are loath to give up these systems because they still hope/fear there is some spiritual content there.

    To anonymous:

    Just because you or I might not want to acknowledge a conspiracy, it doesn’t make the conspiracy go away. It functions quite independently of anyone saying ‘no, it doesn’t exist’ or ‘yes, it does’. I am 57 years old, and I have done a *lot* of reading. I also personally remember Iran/Contra and the ‘dirty tricks’ of Watergate, and I know that these events are interwoven with one another and with conniving men who can be tracked all the way back to Nazi Germany. Many fine people have written carefully researched books about these things. There’s a lot of collusion going on behind the scenes to keep the ‘danger mythology’ in place that keeps prime power-holders in power, and the CIA is definitely a player in the ‘dirty tricks’ business that aids their aims.

    I have raised certain issues about the shooting because they disturb me as a student of history: the CIA likes to pit groups of people one against the other, so that while they waste energy infighting, those in power can continue their slave-owning, environment-exploiting, murdering ways. I find this reprehensible. I am also not falling for the ‘the world is a dangerous place, so you need to keep Bush Co. and Patriot Act surveillance in place’ ploy, nor do I have any patience with the cynical playing of the ‘race card’ here: somebody wants people looking over their shoulders for a nonexistent ‘foreign enemy’ really badly. That’s why it was not a white male shooter.

    I will close by saying that although Women are traditionally seen as nurturing helpmeets, soccer moms, and so on, we are also superbly logical strategists and tacticians, and are perfectly capable of understanding the ins and outs of the governing of nations, including military ploys and spy-games. We are also well-grounded realists, who because of our own experiences, clearly understand how collusion and double-speak work, and why they benefit no one (including the male power-holders who currently indulge in them) in the long run.

    In short, I am worried about an agenda in the shooting because my own life-experience and understanding says I should definitely consider the possibility.

    Posted by akkarri | April 20, 2007, 1:41 am
  46. Cho ‘s dad was KCIA-probably a Moonie. His uncle was in KOREAGATE. Was this the next Bush 911? There was another shooter. Bullet sounds indicate more than one.

    Posted by paul | April 20, 2007, 3:56 am
  47. One reason I do try to connect the dots in incidents like this, and pay attention when others do, is there is such mainstream resistance to doing so! You immediately get smacked down with all of this, “Oh, yeah, and here come the black helicopters, isn’t that tinfoil hat getting a little uncomfortable?” But if, like Akkari and I and others here, you’ve passed the half-century mark, you have indeed seen some fairly amazing conspiracies get worked out that nobody knew were conspiracies until WAY down the line. I remember well when CIA operatives infiltrated radical feminist groups, anti-war groups, Civil Rights/black nationalist groups and just hippie/back-to-the-land groups back in the 60s and 70s. A LOT of people ended up hurt or dead or in jail (and many are still in jail) and a lot of good, dedicated activist groups were destroyed. It was the FBI putting a snitch jacket on a woman leader in the American Indian Movement that ultimately resulted in her being murdered and AIM falling apart, but none of this stuff has become public knowledge until recently with the publication of testimony around COINTELPRO, with various investigations and so on. And we’ve seen the way the U.S. has moved various people around like pawns on a chess board, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, all sorts of guys who were first trained to kill and terrorize and strategize coups to take over governments, then later murdered when they were no longer useful to the U.S. We’ve got photos of Abu Ghraib. We DID that shit. The U.S. is capable of anything, of stuff most of us can’t imagine and don’t want to think about.

    I *do* think it’s pretty wierd that Cho’s parents were first reported to have tried to commit suicide and are now in the hospital. I think it’s wierd that if you search, as I have, you can find almost NOTHING about them. I’m a really good researcher– I couldn’t find anything of substance. Just, they were poor, they suddenly left for the U.S., basically in the middle of the night, they had no relatives here, and yet somehow, running a dry cleaners, they sent a son to Virginia Tech and a daughter to Princeton? I think it’s wierd that Cho knew exactly how to wield those guns in order to kill all those people, shooting some of them three times. That’s not something people just have some sort of natural ability for? And then sending all that stuff to NBC between the first shootings and the last shootings. The heck. All those photographs, the video, the manifesto.

    So here is Paul — hey, Paul, interesting — telling us Cho’s dad is Korean CIA and probably a Moonie and his uncle was in Koreagate. I don’t remember what Koreagate is and have to now investigate.

    But there’s a lot of wierdness happening here, and particularly considering that yesterday was one of the BLOODIESTdays yet in Iraq, 200 Iraqi deaths, despite all these assurances we’ve been giving the Iraqi civilians of increased “security.” It isn’t happening. And of course, few are paying attention to that, and why? In large part because of the VA Tech shootings and now all of the hype. Yes, U.S. media hypes shit like this. But they’ve been reporting this nonstop. They sure didn’t give this level of coverage to the murders of the Amish schoolgirls or the girls in Colorado, you know?

    INTERESTING observation about the cross, Lucky! And what a great little action you did there in the church. 🙂 There is no question that patriarchal religion attempted to wipe the Goddess off the face of the earth, the knowledge of Her, and almost succeeded, too, mostly by killing everybody who refused to forget.

    Love what you say about women as tactitions and strategists, Akkari. So TRUE. Then again, I pretty much love everything you say!


    Posted by womensspace | April 20, 2007, 4:21 am
  48. Maybe few are paying attention to what is happening in Iraq, but it got the attention of Harry Reid, who told Bush yesterday this war is lost. It is pretty sad it took so long for him to realize that, but still, that took more nerve than I thought any of the Democratic leadership had.

    I could answer Branjor and Mary Sunshine in more depth, but I think the question of how men took over the world is too complicated and not really on topic. Do you deny the significance of goddess worship? What happened to that? It was systematically destroyed by men in great fear and hatred of the powers of women. The foundation of male dominant value systems is the subordination of women. Women could not dominate a culture that glorifies violence if the foundational principle placing such value on violence is the subordination of women. One warlike culture among non-warlike cultures would be like a pack of wolves among sheep; no matter how numerous the sheep, if they did not learn to emulate the wolves, they would perish.

    Posted by Aletha | April 20, 2007, 6:12 am
  49. As an avowed anti conspiracy theorist, It disapointing to see some people looking for a hidden hand behind this massacre. You can easily join the dots. The murderer was Korean who’s family seem to have no history. Korea is a hot bed of CIA activity ergo there must be some government involvement in the shooting.

    Sorry I dont buy it. Although I know governments get up to some very unplesent things (as heart has pointed out) this generally comes under the blanket of espionage. What possible benefit would this have for the government? And why would they take such an enourmouse risk? If found out the fall out would destroy the government and possibly the country.

    Having seen the Video’s posted by the killer I was more taken by the almost fasionable way he was dressed for his buisiness. The vest, the gloves, the baseball cap turned backwards. These are all images that are seen on any decent action adventure film today. 33 dead? Arnie killed more than that in the police station in Terminator.
    I am not deminishing the deaths of the people at VT, just pointing out that this is the kind of slaughter is dished up on DVD for our entertainment by Hollywood almost every week.

    I very much doubt CIA/Moonie’s have involvement in this, but I do think Hollywood has a lot to answer for.

    Posted by Corneilius | April 20, 2007, 10:27 am
  50. Heart, thanks as always for the kind words. Paul, thanks for the heads-up in re: Cho’s dad being KCIA, etc. Why am I not surprised?

    There are now two articles up at Prison Planet that raise even more warning flags. Here are a couple of quotes from article #1:

    ‘We have been receiving numerous calls and e mails alerting us to the fact that VA Tech is pulling links from its website concerning their relationship with the CIA. Reports from November 2005 confirm that the CIA was active in operating recruitment programs based out of VA Tech. Several professors from VA Tech are involved in government programs linked with NASA and other agencies.’

    And quote #2:

    ‘Wikipedia also pulled a bizarre recently taken photograph of Cho wearing a U.S. Marines uniform.’

    The Prison Planet article also contains the picture mentioned in quote #2. Here is the url for that article:

    The second article at Prison Planet is titled ‘Sources: Feds Ordered VA Police to Stand Down’. One of the things that I initially observed when this shooting occurred was that what the police at the scene did or did not do would give a good indication of whether or not this was a planned hit. Here is the url for this article:

    I have to say I think it is very spooky/interesting that VA Tech is pulling CIA links from their website. Ditto that Wikipedia posted a photo of Cho in a U.S. Marines uniform and then pulled it. There is also an increasing rumor of two shooters, or rather, a shooter who was distinctly taller than Cho’s 5-foot-8-inches, so Cho may have been an anger-programmed patsy, with no shooting skills. At this point, I think it would be interesting to see if Cho can actually fire a gun at all, and if so, how accurate is he?

    Also, I now really, REALLY want to know about his family and their affiliations in South Korea. It just hurts me more than I can say that 33 families have lost loved ones in what was most likely a smarmy bit of black-ops aimed at U.S. citizens by their own government.

    Posted by akkarri | April 21, 2007, 4:50 am
  51. Washington, April. 19 (AP): The sister of the gunman responsible for the deadliest shooting rampage in modern US history works as a contractor for a State Department office that oversees billions of dollars in American aid for Iraq.

    Sun-Kyung Cho is employed by the Iraq Reconstruction Management Office, according to US officials and a State Department staff directory that says she works from an annex near the department’s headquarters in Washington.

    Messages left on her office voicemail, in which she identifies herself as “Sun Cho” were not immediately returned yesterday.

    The Virginia Tech gunman was her brother, Cho Seung-Hui. Thirty-three people died in the rampage Monday, including the 23-year-old student, who committed suicide.

    Spokesman Sean McCormack would not discuss Sun Cho’s status but told reporters, “This person is not a direct-hire employee of the State Department”. He refused further comment, citing privacy concerns. Other US officials confirmed she works for a contractor.

    The office was set up by President George W Bush to coordinate the reconstruction programme in Iraq and offers jobs to “highly skilled and motivated United States citizens” to work at the US Embassy in Baghdad, Iraq, according to State Department documents.

    The office also has several Washington-based positions.

    “Our mission is to support the sovereign, democratic rights of the Iraqi people to govern themselves, defend their country and rebuild their economy,” the office says in its recruiting brochure.

    Posted by womensspace | April 21, 2007, 12:35 pm
  52. Cho’s parents are Cho Sung-tae, 61, and Cho Hyang-ai, 51

    Cho’s mother was forced into an arranged marriage with his father, Sung-tae, who was 10 years older and from a very different background. She was from a well-educated family of North Korean landowners who had been forced to flee without possessions during the Korean war; he was from a poor family in the south but had made enough money to marry by working in Saudi Arabia for 10 years ion construction sites and oil fields.

    As Hyan-im was 29– a late age for a woman to find a husband in South Korea– her father told her she had to accept the proposal.,,2061279,00.html

    The older sister of Virginia Tech shooter Cho Seung-hui works for McNeil Technologies, a contractor for the State Department in a reconstruction project in Iraq. Three years her brother’s senior, Cho Sun-kyung graduated from Centerville High School and went to Princeton University in 2000. After completing the undergraduate course with a major in economics in 2004, she returned home to work in Virginia and lives with her parents.

    Headquartered in Springfield, Virginia, McNeil Technologies provides information management and analysis, language services and program assistance to customers, mainly U.S. government agencies like the departments of defense and energy.

    Some things that McNeil Technologies does

    Intelligence Architecture Operations in support of the US Army Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC).

    Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) which supports the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and other government agencies, and
    HUMINT (Human Intel) operations in support of DIA, or with federal counter Intel outsourcing effort.
    Our Linguist operations, with linguists deployed in various theaters of operations,
    Translation operations which include document and website translation,
    Testing, Training and Research of language and cultural awareness.

    The Security Center at McNeil Technologies is a dynamic and growing Center providing full spectrum security services.

    …Physical Security which includes Access control, escorts, and Guard services, Electronic systems monitoring, as well as classified mailroom and package inspection.
    Personnel and Logistics Support is provided by MILPO operations
    Program Security consists of arms control and nonproliferation support, treaty vulnerability assessments, and support of Balanced Survivability Assessments

    The sister of Seung-hui Cho, the man accused of carrying out the worst day of violence on a college campus in U.S. history, works out of the State Department as a contractor, government officials told ABC News.

    Sun-Kyung Cho, the shooter’s older sister, is listed in the State Department directory as a personnel assistant at the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs, but sources say she reports to McNeil Technologies, which is one of the many administrative/managerial support contractors used for Iraq reconstruction management projects.

    Posted by womensspace | April 21, 2007, 2:54 pm
  53. Creepy. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to try and divert attention from one highly suspicious event, 9/11, in which there was a stand down of air defenses, by staging another highly suspicious event, VA Tech, with a stand down of police response. That only seems to add fuel to the fire of CIA and BlackOps speculations, which is what they are trying to get away from vis a vis 9/11. Also, as VA Tech is not even close to the magnitude and significance of 9/11, news coverage of it will probably decrease down to a dull roar in a week or two, leaving the news cycle to continue as usual again.

    On the other hand, anything is possible in a society as evil and controlled as this one. 9/11 certainly did work for neocon purposes, so maybe they are hoping that VA Tech will too. So by all means, investigate. Don’t leave any stone unturned.

    Posted by Branjor | April 21, 2007, 5:30 pm
  54. What can we learn from this tragedy?
    Shouldn’t security be more stringent?
    Shouldn’t Americans be less complacent?
    Shouldn’t women take over more control since men have made a mess
    of the world we live in?
    Ladies, the ball is in your court!

    Posted by andrewtungsk | April 22, 2007, 8:25 am
  55. Question Marks

    “This didn’t have to happen”, Cho Seung-Hui said, after brutally murdering thirty-two people at Virginia Tech University.

    And this terrible tragedy of sons, daughters, mothers and fathers didn’t have to happen, if we’d only listened.

    But we never listen.

    We never listen to those that are different from us- the outcasts, the lonely, the homeless, the ones that are unspoken for. We don’t try to understand. We shun them and put them out of our minds because of our fear that we will become like them.

    And these people become more and more lonely and alienated in their isolation.

    Words like “creep”, “deranged misfit” and “psycho” devalue this killer’s humanity so we don’t have to face how similar he is to us. Cries of “how could he have been stopped” are uttered by media quick to sensationalize and gain market share, when the words “how could he have been listened to” are never considered.

    Because we don’t want to listen.

    We don’t want to hear about loneliness and alienation when we’re all so busy with our lives, making money and making friends. And the unpopular, the ones that don’t fit in, the lonely ones are ignored or made fun of because we don’t care to understand anything about them.

    This man who clearly needed help desperately, Cho Seung-Hui, devalued himself so much that he called himself “Question Mark”.

    There are more “Question Marks” out there. There are millions of them. And if we don’t listen to them, they will follow the same path again and again, because people are not connecting. We are becoming more and more disconnected from each other, creating more and more “Question Marks” every day.

    Most “Question Marks” don’t become murderers. Some just kill themselves. Most harm no one and live just as we do, needing antidepressants to appear what we call “normal”. They may be someone you know, someone you love.

    This “Question Mark” was once a little boy, who cried, and smiled and loved, He wanted to fit in just like you and I. But that desire to fit in transformed itself into anger towards a society that shunned and ignored him.

    How many more times will we shun and ignore the one that doesn’t fit in, the one in the corner, the one that’s different? When all we have to do is listen, before it’s too late.

    But we won’t.

    Thirty-two human beings who did not know Cho Seung-Hui were murdered.
    They were sons, daughters, fathers and mothers, with dreams of futures that will never come and children that will never be born. The thirty-two leave behind people that love them. People that are now scarred for life by this horrible day of death.

    To most of us that have not been directly involved, this tragedy will become a memory and fade like all the others that came before.

    And the “Question Marks” will appear with more frequency, again and again, because we don’t listen.

    We never do.


    Posted by X: THC | April 22, 2007, 6:16 pm
  56. Regarding VT – There would be more dead victims had it not been for a fragile 75 year old professor who sacrificed his life to save healthy adult students.

    Where were the strong brave young men during this horrible event ? They were escaping out the windows running with the girls to find cover.

    Liviu Librescu, 75, a Holocaust survivor who had emigrated from Israel and a 22-year veteran of Virginia Tech. Librescu had confronted Cho when he tried to enter his solid mechanics classroom, attempting to hold the door shut to give students time to jump out the windows.

    It’s too bad today’s generation of males have been emasculated from their male tendencies to protect as they have done for centuries. Thanks to women’s libbers you have made pansies out of a large part of our young males.

    Had one of the students helped, possibly more would have survived. If one student or the professor had a licensed concealed handgun Cho’s rampage could have been cut much shorter. Unfortunately, Virginia Law prohibits licensed handguns from being on a school campus.

    Thoughts and prayers for the victims and their families.

    Posted by Centurion | April 24, 2007, 2:05 pm


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