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Women's Bodies

Single, Pregnant Mom in Desperate Need– Can You Help? Today?

I just received this urgent plea from my long time sister from the old Ms Boards, Echidne of the Snakes:

Dear Heart,

I got this letter today, and help is needed urgently:
—-
I just received a very desperate plea from a local clinic for funding for a patient that I will be unable to help. Our fund has assisted 5 women this month and after giving this woman $200, we have depleted our funds without completely helping her at all.

Please read further:

We need $400 more in order to pay the $850 fee of a 2nd trimester patient who HAS to be seen tomorrow, or she’ll be too far along to be seen in the state of Tennessee. In that case, her fee will increase even more and she will have to pay the traveling expenses, as well.

She’s raised $250 and we have given the clinic $200 on her behalf thus far.

She’s a single mom with a 19 month old; co-conceiver skipped town; no child support because that dude skipped town; she is clinically very depressed and extremely desperate. She makes less than $800 a month working fulltime. She makes too much to get any state aid and definitely not covered by TNCare. She became pregnant after her birthcontrol failed to prevent her pregnancy.

Can you help?

Please call me at 865-455-9949 or send a paypal donation to
equalaccessfund@gmail.com asap.

******

Can any of you help?  Here is a woman working full-time, with a toddler, making $800 per month. and facing an unwanted pregnancy, and where are the “co-conceivers” (because they sure aren’t “dads”)?  Nowhere to be found.  My heart goes out to her and I hope she gets the help she needs.

Heart

Discussion

56 thoughts on “Single, Pregnant Mom in Desperate Need– Can You Help? Today?

  1. Done, hopefully the instant transfer option from my bank through Paypal does go through right away.

    Posted by Lookingglass | June 12, 2007, 8:06 pm
  2. wish i wasn’t so damn broke…same boat financially,

    but wanted to say, there are too many cases like this and they are increasing…abortions are not cheap, so many do not realize that,

    why the system has to change.

    its hard for me to read cases like this, as this is my story too, twice, but i did pull through….my and the kids [three children]

    but the scars are there, Damn, she’ll need support, lots of and lots of hugs and love…its worse when there is that poverty as part of the equation, so much worse,

    and the abandonment combined with poverty, is devestating…those effects last a lifetime.

    [regardless of whether a woman chooses to abort or not]

    daycare alone for an infant is more than $800 a month and those programs are being cut and have been cut…just childcare, would do so much, to lift the burden off of womyn,

    this is why i bring up class, This is why,

    you know its one thing to talk empowerment and sexual freedom when you can afford it,

    its another when you have children and no income worth crap, [and yea its white womyn not just womyn of color…i say that because there is Such a denial of this fact, this reality] and $800 a month is kaka,

    it doesn’t even put food on the table…if she isn’t in housing [and the list there is three years long in most states] she is really in dire poverty,

    and you know she most likely doesn’t qualify for food stamps either, i didn’t, and that was my income…with one child and one on way…and then having to bow to the system and they just dick you over every way,

    do you have cable? yea Right, can’t even afford a car or bus tokens and you wanna know if i have cable, shit don’t even own a t.v….

    thats the crap they put these womyn through…[and dont’ forget, it was Dems who pushed that damn welfare reform through and Rep who cut it more]

    but i want to say one thing,

    it doesn’t matter if she was on birth control or not, as far as her needing help, yea that is result of that whole demonizing of poor womyn, but you know something,

    finding yourself pregnant CAN HAPPEN TO ANY WOMAN, ANY

    WOMAN

    so to me doesn’t matter, no judgments, and i know its sad really, that we find ourselves saying,

    oh this or oh that…[its part of that psychology of fighting the stigmas and part of that internalizations, i know, i did it…and i have heard so many times, ‘oh, didn’t you use the pill’ type of crap]

    i had sex, o.k. she had sex, o.k. womyn have sex, o.k.

    sometimes pregnancy is the result, sometimes it isn’t,

    but the men, dont’ have that ‘stigma’

    so i would ask,

    didn’t HE use birth control? Why didn’t HE use protection? He abandoned, bad enough, so if he didn’t want a child, then why didn’t HE not HAVE SEX?

    My heart goes out to this woman and i won’t even bother saying i channel love because it sounds so damn empty and i know just how much she hurts, fears, rages and goddamnit it is hell, it is hell.

    may the father though, get penis rot, seriously…dickwad asshole.

    she’ll need lots of support that i will really stress,

    would there be a way that we could all send a card of support here, or something? maybe a care basket…i dont’ know, i feel bad for not having funds right now, but then too, i feel bad for not having means to end this, for all these womyn.

    yea this is why i am going to write on the class,

    this is why…all the ‘consciousness of patriarchy’ doesnt’ do a damn bit of good when you are barely surviving and poverty is kicking you down in every way….

    too many cases like hers, way too many, but even if it was only one, that is, too many

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 12, 2007, 10:20 pm
  3. just to add, its not just for ‘all these womyn’ shit its for me too, i’m still in same boat…

    in suck ass marriage, [oh, don’t Even get me started as to why womyn, esp poor, can’t leave marriage or domestic violence, when children are involved…or why some womyn will opt for marriage to escape poverty [why i did even though i knew, yea dumb dumb but when its choice of living in cardboard box, prostitution or, some security, and he seems o.k. enough, nothing to do with love really, well you be surprised at what you do for your children]

    no he doesn’t hit me but he’s an asshole nethertheless, and its so much about economics…trying to get out…long story

    but yea, its not just ‘these womyn’, shit i’m one of them…
    so anyway….[its all in my blog, pathetic story really, almost unbelievable, shit times i think its bizarre and surreal, but it is the reality and reality for so many womyn i know, the invisible…and why i am confronting class priviledge more and more…i’ve seen far worse than my situ…far, far worse

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 12, 2007, 10:28 pm
  4. She got the money she needed. 🙂 Thanks, lookingglass! And all who contributed.

    And YES to what you’ve said there, Tasha. It also bothers me when it’s as though people have to be told why a woman ended up pregnant. We know why! Even being told that she works full-time for $800 sort of troubles me. Would she need an abortion less if she didn’t work full-time? Or if she worked full time and made $1,500 or $2,500 per month but had a car payment, daycare bills, and health insurance to pay for? If she were on welfare would she need an abortion less?

    I’m just glad that one woman was helped today. Thank the Goddess.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 2:51 am
  5. 2500 a month,

    i can’t even think in those numbers…that type of income is surreal to me, seriously, i always wonder how these people pay for these 200,000 homes,

    even just browsing through job adds, i’ve yet to see jobs that pay more than 10.00 an hour, the most i’ve made…

    minus taxes…

    i wanted to share this, the other face of Amerikkka that so many aren’t really aware of,

    see how many womyn, are in these photos, just NY City alone, these same photos, could have been taken in any city in the US,

    i have a photo like this of me, the hollow cheeks, death eyes…they are hard for me to look at, you don’t forget, every day, i dont’ forget…only by the grace of the goddess/god i am not there, right now,

    only by the grace

    i won’t paste, out of respect to the photographer and the people, i would urge to look at every page [only 10, takes about five minutes]

    and on his blog he has their stories…
    http://www.pbase.com/mashuga/homeless_nyc&page=1

    i wrote about this, in my blog and will write more, about also the many people i met, during those years…who are with me, every day, in my heart.

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 13, 2007, 5:21 am
  6. Would she need an abortion less if she…worked full time and made $1,500 or $2,500 per month but had a car payment, daycare bills, and health insurance to pay for?

    If she took home a liveable wage she might still need an abortion. However, in that case she might not (probably shouldn’t) need the help of strangers to pay for it. She could do like the rest of us do when the unexpected emergency expense comes up: use what money she has to take care of the emergency expense and struggle through the coming months to catch up on the car payment and/or utility bills that ended up a month behind because of it.

    Life is hard for all of us and unfortunately it’s harder for some than for others. I’m glad that she got the help that she needs.🙂

    Posted by CoolAunt | June 13, 2007, 1:28 pm
  7. Thank you SO much for your help, guys. Please feel free to visit http://www.myspace.com/equalaccessfund

    or

    http://www.nnaf.org (our parent org) for more information on what we do. Thanks for helping our current client!

    Choice means nothing without access.

    Posted by heatherofequalaccessfund | June 13, 2007, 2:08 pm
  8. I think sometimes women still need help sometimes to pay for abortions, even when they earn a livable wage, and this is particularly true of single mothers. Sometimes they have already been robbing Peter to pay Paul for months and years on end. They are in a cycle they can’t get out of in which they are paying every single bill on the day whatever-it-is is going to be cut off/repossessed. They have gotten payday loans because these were the only “loans” available to them, and the payday loans are ruining them. Their credit is lousy so they can’t get regular loans or credit cards because of all of the above. Their ex isn’t paying child support and isn’t having visitation either and so they are paying every single expense for the kids. In order to go after the guy, they’ve got to pay an attorney. The deductibles on the kids’, or her own, medical or dental expenses or the unpaid portion of these bills are killing them.

    I have a hard time being in any way judgmental — whether of the morals, the finances or whatever it might be — of a single mother who finds herself in this situation with not enough money for an abortion on the day that she needs it. Most single mothers live on the very edge of the precipice and something like this is the last straw. They can have the abortion or get the lights turned off or lose the car or be evicted or lose their daycare or not be able to pay carfare/busfare/for groceries for the next two weeks.

    With respect, CoolAunt, I think we all know that being financially responsible is a good thing. Most single mothers find a way to make it on amounts that anybody looking would say were absolutely impossible to make it on. I sure have. I know this kind of scenario only too well, and the desperation a single mom feels.

    Heart

    Posted by Heart | June 13, 2007, 3:46 pm
  9. Beyond that, and for that matter, if you want to know the truth? No matter why a woman can’t pay for her abortion on the last day she can get one, even if she’s been what this world calls “irresponsible,” even if she’s been “extravagant,” say, and bought the kids real food when she “could have” been feeding them macaroni and cheese and three-for-a-buck bread, even if she bought one of them a nice pair shoes, nice jacket, even if she paid for one of them to go to journalism camp so she’s way in the hole, even if she splurged and got herself a haircut or a manicure or bought herself a dress or went out to dinner, I don’t care about that.

    If she is in trouble, and she has nowhere to go, and she needs the money for an abortion today, I’ve got ya, babe. To whatever degree I can do that.

    That is not the time for discussions of financial responsibility.

    And no woman — NO WOMAN — seeks this kind of help, i.e., circulating the news on blogs, if she is not desperate. Even women who make a living wage so called.

    Heart

    Note: I will not approve comments to this thread which are any version — ANY version — of “if she couldn’t afford them, why did she have them.”

    Don’t even try it. I don’t care what your “logic” is.

    (That wasn’t directed at you CoolAunt, that was directed towards anyone who would form their lips to say something like that. –H)

    Posted by Heart | June 13, 2007, 3:51 pm
  10. Heather, my pleasure, our pleasure to be of help to you and thank you for your very fine organization! Which I will add forthwith to the blogroll.
    🙂

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 3:53 pm
  11. And beyond THAT.

    Oh no, I can feel it coming on, very very sore spot for me.

    You know, single mothers work fucking miracles all of the time, every day, every week, every month, even the ones that are making $2,500 a month. Try to make it by yourself on $2,500 a month when you have three, four, five-11 kids and you live in Los Angeles or New York or Seattle. Nobody’s going to rent to you, tell you what. If you have more than three kids, especially, you are screwed, landlords are going to laugh at you. Unless, possibly — and maybe note even then — you go WAY way out, 60 miles or so out of the city, then somebody might rent to you and you might be able to afford it, but where are you going to work then? How are you going to pay for gas? Especially when there is no public transportation.

    I know single mothers who are working full time jobs, caring for aging relatives, and random kids who need a place to stay. I have had an unrelated young person living at my house for the last two years who just now has moved out. A couple years ago, I had another unrelated — although she is like family to us and has been for years — young woman living with me for over a year. I, and women like me, take in strays because they need a place to live.

    Do you know what it is to be a single mom without credit, living on the edge of the precipice, and then your car goes out?

    Now that is a scenario in which you will *have* to rob Peter to pay Paul, nothing else to do about it, you will have to come up with either the money for the new engine or the new transmission or a new beater car for $500 bucks but you will probably get your lights turned off or your gas turned off or your babysitter will say sorry, I can’t take in your children unles you pay me, I have a waiting list a mile long of people who will pay. (And she DOES have to get paid, I don’t fault her.) Or you will have $4.32 in your bank account and your next payday will be coming up in 11 days.

    The costs — THE COSTS — of having a child in a public high school are EXORBITANT. There is the $50, the $35 random expenses for individual classes, there are the $150-900 (yes that much) costs to play sports, there are the hundreds of dollars in costs to participate in choir, band, go to state contests.

    When one of my daughters went to state for choir a couple years back, I noticed that for CHOIR, BAND AND ORCHESTRA –hear me now — choir, band, orchestra, there were less than FIVE BLACK STUDENTS. Out of something like 500 from the whole state.

    You mean to tell me there were no black students gifted in choir, band or orchestra. Nice joke. They could not afford to go. Their parents couldn’t pay for it.

    My daughter couldn’t afford it either, she got a scholarship, it was something like $350 and it was *in my city*. Had she had to go to another city the cost would have been much higher.

    And yet THIS is how kids make it in the world, IF they do, kids who go the traditional public school route. They make it because when their junior/senior year rolls around, they can put together a portfolio which shows that they lettered in a sport, they went to state, they got good grades, they participated in this that and the other, and ALL of that, ALL of that costs money and a lot of it. So single mothers knock themselves out, bend heaven and hell to pay as much of this stuff as they can so their kids have a chance of making it and then what.

    They don’t have money for food, rent, clothes, gas.

    And people will say, “Well, should of thought of that before you kids.”

    Like ANYBODY knows the hellhole it is to try to survive as a mother, let alone a single mother in this world if you are not RICH. Like anybody has any clue what they are in for. Like most women have children thinking the co-conceiver is going to split.

    And then after they’ve moved heaven and hell to do their best for their kids and it isn’t enough, damn right, they are going to get blamed for it, oh, those single mothers, they are responsible for every societal and cultural ill imaginable.

    And so, yeah, you’ve got single mothers who start to break down, they begin to not be able to do it anymore, they drink, they abuse substances, they medicate with shitty relationships thinking maybe this is their hope, this will be an answer for them, they get into other kinds of destructive self-medication. Or they start stripping, or being an escort or something like that which brings with it a host of other horrendous problems.

    And then they come up pregnant. And the money just isn’t there.

    What. We’re going to say, “Well, you make a living wage, you should just do your best and suffer for a while if you want an abortion, I mean, you shouldn’t ask strangers, we all have our problems.”

    If feminism is not about giving the leg up to a woman in the crisis of her life and needing an abortion — I don’t care WHY she needs one right now today — then feminism is WORTHLESS. That’s precisely, to me, what it’s about.

    There are a million reasons a woman making a living wage can find herself struggling to survive and 99 percent of them are not within her immediate control.

    If she needs my help, she’s got it. If she rips me off, I’ll deal with that when the time comes.
    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 4:13 pm
  12. I think what CoolAunt was getting at was not that womyn struggle financially or that any woman has it easy in ability to afford abortions, etc…

    and its not just issue of abortion here, its issue of the ‘class’ difference in the issue of Any health care,

    for some womyn its the decision whether or not to give up a car and no, thats not a positive nor does that mean in any way that its justified that its this way…

    but for many womyn, its the decision of whether they LOSE THE CHILDREN THEY HAVE BECAUSE THEY’LL CAN WIND UP ON THE STREETS…

    if they choose ‘to pay for abortion or to keep the child, either way you can wind up on the streets [I DID WITH A CHILD] —

    which is a bit more difficult than ‘losing a car or adjusting bills’…

    a HUGE DIFFERENCE…and This is the gist of what CoolAunt was saying i think, and again, its not just abortion here…

    there could be any health issue such as surgery that is needed that means the matter between LIFE AND DEATH, or good quality preventative care, or prenatal care for high risk pregnancies so you don’t wind up with children with disabilities [as I DID and WHICH COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED IF I WOULD HAVE HAD THE PROPER CARE]

    and that is the heart of the issue here, in the WEALTHIEST NATION IN THE WORLD,

    health care, for all, not just womyn, [but here the focus is on womyn] IS NOT A RIGHT,

    ITS A PRIVILEDGE AND TO THOSE WHO CAN AFFORD IT,

    AND TO THOSE WHO CAN’T,

    it reveals more than just ‘difficulty’ in Amerikkka, IT REVEALS HOW OUR CAPITALIST SOCIETY JUDGES PEOPLE’S WORTH,

    AND ITS A TIERED LADDER SYSTEM…EVEN THOSE WITH INSURANCE, IT DEPENDS, GOOD INSURANCE VS CRAP INSURANCE [SOME INSURANCE ON THE LEVEL OF MEDICAID…USUALLY WHAT MIDDLE TO LOWER MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE GET ‘IF’ EMPHASIS ON ‘IF’ CAN EVEN GET THAT…

    now, lets take this further…abortion NOR BIRTH CONTROL is covered under MOST INSURANCES, even the UNION INSURANCE, SUIT LAST YEAR, MEN CAN GET VIAGRA AT 90 FUCKING YEARS OLD BUT UNION WOMYN [PACIFIC I BELIEVE] COULDN’T GET BIRTH CONTROL COVERAGE…

    [cuzz you know god forbid if a 90 year old man can’t fuck but HEY ALRIGHT TO HAVE CHILDREN IN POVERTY, FILLING UP FOSTER CARE, WOMYN BEING SCREWED BY LEGAL SYSTEMS, MEN WALKING AWAY AND EVEN THE CHILD SUPPORT INDUSTRY, IS IN SOME ASPECTS…IS A MONEY MAKING INDUSTRY [AS THEY COLLECT PERCENTAGE]

    and its not just about birth control and abortion, its about the majority of older womyn who find themselves, in dire poverty because they can’t afford medicines…

    and that is again, Class, if a woman has a good retirement fund or her husband did, she will struggle but she won’t be like, having to sell flowers on a street corner somewhere,

    if a woman is low income, and by the time she is 80, most likely she’ll wind up on the streets or in state homes and then there is 60% chance she’ll be abused in those state homes…

    this brings up a really good issue that I will be just very blunt here, has been SEVERELY NEGLECTED BY MAINSTREAM POLITICS IN THIS COUNTRY…

    sure, there is ‘talk of health care’ but its usually centered around ‘middle class’ and very little about how not only the lack of medical care hurts the poor, working poor, those who fall between the cracks of the system so to speak,

    but rarely is there focus on the IMPACTS TO WOMYN WHO FEEL THOSE IMPACTS IN MANY WAYS MORE THAN MEN…

    and Medicaid is not a cure all, in fact, often times, POOR WOMYN AND YES POOR CHILDREN ARE USED AS GUNIE PIGS [SIC] WHEN ON MEDICAID,

    I KNOW THAT FOR A FACT…..

    and for WOMYN OF COLOR THIS IS MOST DEFINATELY A FACT.

    [one of those dirty little panties called ‘economic and race ‘eugenics’ cleverly done through the face of compassion]

    and why this is, because some doctors will take Medicaid because ‘new testings’ can be paid for..not necessarily needed ones or good ones….so poor are often ‘research lab rats’ esp children — and ESPECIALLY IN THE MENTAL HEALTH CARE

    the lack of medical care and the abuse of medical AFFECTS ALL WOMYN,

    but for the poor, ITS A DOUBLE DEMON,

    for the poor and for people of color, ITS A TRIPLE DEMON

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 13, 2007, 4:27 pm
  13. Oh, no. Like I say, got the dog by the tail, goin’ on down shit creek.

    Then, when a single mom, or poor mom’s, kids see that they are not going to make it in school. They don’t have what it takes. They don’t have the clothes, they don’t have the cash, they are barred from all of the activities which would ensure some success for them, they get themselves into trouble. They start acting up. They self-medicate with drugs or alcohol. They get in with the wrong crowd. They get arrested one night.

    And now guess who is responsible for the costs associated with this? Their mom. Talking now hundreds of dollars in court costs and fines and court-ordered “assessment” programs and victims’ panels. If a kid ends up in the local juvenile detention center, the MOTHER pays for every day he’s there, something like $150 per day in my town. Do you know how fast that adds up for a single mom?

    And an attorney? HA! That’s a fucking joke. People are told in this culture that if they are charged with a crime and they cannot pay for an attorney, the “court will assign one for them.”

    THIS IS A JOKE.

    You will not qualify for a court-appointed attorney unless, essentially, you have no job at all or are already in prison. If you make any sort of income, even minimum wage, you will fall OUTSIDE the guidelines.

    So then they will tell you to go to the local attorney organization and ask for help. Usually, you will not find anyone to take your case for free.

    And this is CRIMINAL stuff. we’re talking about If your child ends up being sued for some reason, or you do, for something your child has done, in civil court, there are no remedies for you, period, other than throwing yourself on the mercy of some sort of charitable attorney organization, again, and hoping someone will take your case.

    Now add to all of this the reality that if your children are black, or of color, or alternative in any way, gay, lesbian, they have a MUCH higher chance of being stopped/arrested by the police EVEN IF THEY HAVEN’T DONE A DAMN THING.

    It doesn’t matter though, because you will STILL be held responsible for paying for their court costs/attorneys’ fees/detention fees, all the fees associated with racist-ass, lesbo/homophobic-ass cops targeting your child for harrassment.

    And as a single mom, or a poor mom, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY IT.

    Doesn’t MATTER what else you have to pay or what your expenses are. Tough luck for YOU.

    All the while everybody tut-tuts about what a shitty mother you are or all single moms are or all moms are, and while even your own kids, not realizing what it took for you to do the very LITTLE you were able to do, grow up blaming you for not doing enough, because instead of getting that manicure that one time, you should have bought them what they neeed and their lives would have been different, such that at the end of the day, NOBODY realizes what a single mom’s/poor mom’s lot has been, even her own kids,

    and she ends up on the street like those women Tasha is talking about. And no, I am not joking.

    This is a small FRACTION of the crap single/poor/moms of color go through ALL of the time.

    So if they need an abortion today–uh, yes, ma’am, if I can help you I am right there, no questions asked.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 4:28 pm
  14. for some womyn its the decision whether or not to give up a car and no, thats not a positive nor does that mean in any way that its justified that its this way…

    but for many womyn, its the decision of whether they LOSE THE CHILDREN THEY HAVE BECAUSE THEY’LL CAN WIND UP ON THE STREETS…

    if they choose ‘to pay for abortion or to keep the child, either way you can wind up on the streets [I DID WITH A CHILD] –

    which is a bit more difficult than ‘losing a car or adjusting bills’…

    If you lose the car

    You lose the job

    You lose your home

    You are on the streets.

    It’s the difference between being on the streets immediately
    and being on the streets in a few weeks or month’s time.

    I think “adjusting bills” is for people without kids or het couples with two incomes.

    It’s not for single moms and poor people.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 4:35 pm
  15. But beyond all this, how much does it SUCK that it’s women like us who don’t even have any extra money, helping our own, in this rich nation which could easily afford to care for its poor.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 4:38 pm
  16. All that stuff about police harrassment is fresh in my mind because I’ve gone my rounds with that and am truly going to write about it one of these days, what one of my sons went through — TOTALLY wrong, he had done NOTHING, he was targeted by racist cops, and ONLY because of my own familiarity with the legal system was he able to come out okay, that’s the ONLY reason.

    It sucks so much, too. One of the reasons my son ultimately did okay, too, was, I was present at every one of his court hearings. Poor people usually can’t be because they can’t get there, they can’t get time off work, whatever. So their kids (if they aren’t in jail because nobody could bail them out for something they didn’t do in the first place) end up in jail anyway because something the court looks for — the presence of family members to support the accused person –the kid doesn’t have and the court decides the kid is a loser who doesn’t even have parents who care about him, must be a criminal, throw him in jail.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 4:48 pm
  17. And one more thing:

    THIS IS WHY WOMEN END UP IN PATRIARCHAL RELIGION.

    Because there, they will receive support as mothers. There, so long as they tow the devout, believing, party line, church members will show up with food, money, babysitting, when they get into trouble like this.

    The only place mothers can go to get this kind of help, immediately, for (apparently) free, is to conservative religion/fundamentalism of all kinds.

    Of course it costs them. They have to sell their soul for it.

    But if it’s between their kids and selling their soul, or their body, hell yeah, they’ll sell.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 4:59 pm
  18. Heart,

    actually with three kids no one will rent, or with two [i lied, had to, hid one kid, and you are right, single mothers are forced to rob and lie and do whatever to survive]

    but now its not just credit checks for apartments [my credit is so fucked shit, i’m screwed, why i have stayed in this marriage and its not good for me or the kids, but like, what the alternatives are, are far worse]

    but anyway now it CREDIT CHECKS TO GET JOBS, LOW PAYING JOBS…

    so now they are really putting the screws to single mothers [and a few single low income dads, a minority yes but they do exist, met one in shelter, he had five kids]

    as for people [and its men and women who do this shit and yea, in the democratic and liberals and i’ve even gotten it from fucking socialists] who say, you should have thought of that

    [i swear i should have that statement stamped on my forehead i’ve heard it so much or the ‘why didn’t you abort’ or ‘don’t you know what the pill is’ crap…]

    they NEVER STOP TO THINK,

    1. HUGE PERCENTAGE OF SINGLE MOTHERS, DIVORCED,

    2. HUGE PERCENTAGE OF SINGLE MOTHERS LEFT ABUSE
    AND GOD FORBID, IF SHE CAN’T LEAVE DUE TO FINANCES AND THE ASSHOLE SAY, SLAPS HER CHILD WHILE SHE’S AT WORK, SHE GETS CRIMINALIZED WITH HIM…BUT MORE SO

    3. HUGE PERCENTAGE OF TEEN MOMS COME FROM ABUSIVE HOMES, SEX ABUSE, POVERTY, RURAL AREAS WITH NO JOBS OR OPPORTUNITIES FOR WOMYN SO MARRIAGE IS THE WAY OUT OF POVERTY…SOME STATES THIS IS MORE SO

    4. MANY WIDOWED [THE YOUNGER SHE IS THE LESS SSI, MOST DON’T EVEN CONSIDER THAT BUT IT HAPPENS]

    5. ILLNESS, AND MEN ABANDON, AND YEA I’VE SEEN IT, MS AND EPILEPSY AND CANCERS…THESE WOMYN WITH CHILDREN AND THE HUSBAND OR FATHER JUST WALKS OUT…ESP IS SHE WAS SOLE CARE TAKER/HOMEMAKER AND HE JUST CAN’T ‘COPE’ WITH THE EXTRA RESPONSIBILITIES

    6. POVERTY…POVERTY ALSO CONTRIBUTES TO DIVORCE,

    I’ve seen too many womyn, single mothers, who I swear, had good jobs, nice houses, the two cars,

    ON THE STREETS, OR LIVING IN CARS OR IN SHELTERS

    and not just single mothers, WOMYN, SINGLE WOMYN EVEN, YOUNG WOMYN, WOMYN VETS, NO KIDDING, I’VE SEEN THEM…

    womyn who had families and homes and one day, boom, car accident, and major head injury [Alice this is for you sister] and who have no ‘long term memory’ only short term…yea, Alice couldn’t remember long term memory of her three sons, she had a career, now she’s one of the homeless…

    womyn who find they have cancer and jack ass husband just can’t cope or maybe another disease…and he walks, oh i’ve seen it, and these are womyn married for 15 something + years

    womyn whose husbands leave for some younger woman, and she’s worked, but hey, with kids, guess what, he hides assets, he has controlled the money, she’s used most of her income for the children…he walks, leaves the state,
    she’s stuck, see it all the damn time

    or

    womyn, upper middle class, trying to be Superwoman, work all day, keep the nice Better Homes & Garden House, work out in gym and keep that trim figure, make sure those kids act and look like the children [and that takes a lot of work] on the cover of magazines…and she’s getting two to three hours sleep so she takes a little upper, maybe coke, then meth…

    and that 20 dollar habit becomes 200 dollar habit and ole hubby now he don’t care cuzz his image, you know…that whole fricking ‘capitalist yuppie image’ shoved on people in their cubicle jobs and their cubicle houses…

    and eventually it all falls apart and she’s on the streets…

    seen that a couple of times

    and society will look at her and just Assume she’s some white trash from the trailer park on the east side of the city and that she’s just this and that…

    they have no idea, her background, she probably has more education and degrees than most of us here….

    so yea for those MORONS who say, why this and why that, that FALSE ATTRIBUTION,

    is that whole ‘gotta blame the victim cuzz if i don’t blame the victim then i have to face that it might happen to me…

    and thats EXACTLY HOW THE SYSTEM THRIVES…AND IT PUTS WOMYN, ESPECIALLY,

    ALWAYS ON THE DEFENSE, ESP SINGLE MOTHERS

    AND I AM GONNA SAY IT, ITS SO MUCH THAT WHOLE FUCKING MOMMY DEMONIZATION…CRAP THAT YES, MANY FEMINISTS DO,

    THEY CONTRIBUTE TO THE OPPRESSION OF SINGLE MOTHERS AND THEMSELVES,

    WHETHER THEY REALIZE IT OR NOT,

    [LIKE THAT ONE BOOK THAT CAME OUT THAT WAS LIKE WOMYN GET CAREERS AND WOMYN WHO CHOOSE TO STAY HOME ARE SELL OUTS….YEA, NICELY SAID BY A WOMAN WITH A NANNY [WHOM MOST LIKELY IS A POOR WOMAN OF COLOR, OR WORST, A TRAFFICKED DOMESTIC SLAVE]

    there ARE NO GUARANTEES AND WHY WOMYN HAVE GOT TO REALLY SEE,

    IT COULD BE THEM, BECUASE WHEN THE SYSTEM WORKS, TO OPPRESS ONE,

    TO DEMONIZE ONE, TO REFUSE ONE,

    THE SYSTEM OPPRESSES, DEMONIZES AND REFUSES ALL OF US,

    AND OUR CHILDREN.

    and you are very right Heart…and it is one of the worst injustices…

    if not the worst. and it is not just tied into class, its also tied into that devaluing of womyn, mothers especially, children which yea,

    is tied into class too, and racism because of how the ‘labor’ and ‘UNPAID LABOR’ [AND OH YOU DONT WONT TO GET ME STARTED THERE, JUST LET SOME FAR LEFTIST SAY ‘PARASITE’, WHERE MARX WAS A SEXIST ASSHOLE IN THAT REGARDS…I SAY OH HELL NO,

    UNPAID LABOR IS LABOR, NOT PLAY, AND NECESSARY TO SOCIETIES SURVIVAL AND SHOULD BE ‘PAID’…THATS RIGHT…

    ok i’ll shut up now cuzz now i getting on soap box here…these were the issues i really butted heads on against the MEN in the far left, esp how labor is used, to create a male supremacy over womyn….

    arrrrrgh

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 13, 2007, 5:04 pm
  19. Before I read your latest, Tasha, heck no, don’t shut up!

    This is very therapeutic!
    😛

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 5:06 pm
  20. Oh god. Don’t even get me started with the credit checks for apartments and jobs, my computer will go up in smoke. 😦

    i lied, had to, hid one kid, and you are right, single mothers are forced to rob and lie and do whatever to survive]

    Yes, we do, we lie, we say, “I have one child 9 years old,” when we have four kids, 18 months, 5, 9 and 16. And then when they figure it out and evict us they say, “SHE LIED.”

    Those single mothers, what liars.

    Okay, on to read your latest, Tasha.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 5:07 pm
  21. Does anybody have any idea, really and truly, how badly the past couple of administrations have fucked things up for women, for poor people, for people of color, for working class people, for children, for everybody but the very rich.

    Does anybody really have any IDEA.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 5:19 pm
  22. For a time where I lived an inspection sticker would change colors depending on the month and year. Because I could not afford car insurance (I did manage to pay off the car), rent was $570, electricity was $150+ (even with an audit to see how I could save, ceiling fans, using no AC, it was based on an average history and not my actual use or some crap that did not make sense) no credit cards, whatever left over for groceries, fuel for work, and new clothes only occasionally for me and my daughter. I could not get an inspection sticker or renew my license plates. Both required proof of insurance to do. Insurance was more expensive if there was a lapse in not having insurance than if one had insurance, this includes if you never had a car, you were still considered not having an insurance history and charged a higher rate. Plus I needed the premium upfront or some crap, it was like needing $300-500 up front to pay $100 or more a month from then on. No child support, this was before the state took over. I had already spent at least $5000 (supposedly a sliding scale for the needy) over a period of six or seven years pursuing child support and reaping nothing. So I would find out what color the inspection sticker was to be for that time and seek out paper that color (usually some pastel color) from work or someone’s desk that color and stencil a big number (the number of the month) and tape it in my windshield where the inspection sticker was to go. It would not hold water if the police stopped me, but it would divert the police if they are doing quick glances as the drive by. For the license plates, my brother would give me one off a car that was going to a junk yard (he was a mechanic).

    I was in an uppity neighborhood one morning, actually to be precise it was a country club neighborhood. I was jogging three times a week with an attorney, who paid me to jog with him, twenty bucks a pop. He was old and ugly. Right before I turned into the area where we met to jog these two little punk ass rich boys in a flaming red brand new mustang on their way to high school hit me from behind. The police were called immediately. My car had no damage but the mustang’s whole front end was smashed. The boy was on the cell phone at the time (before cell phones were popular and affordable enough for the hoi polloi) and he had to gun the car because it was barely fifty yards from the red light, where he was in fact stopped, so he was obviously showing off how fast his car could accelerate not once considering someone ahead him may stop (as I did to turn).

    His mother made it there before the police. She was raving around like a lunatic, accusing me of trying to get her family’s money. When the police came, it was a man who was a subordinate of a police man who moonlighted where I worked before. I did not know about the subordinate part until I asked the policeman if he knew the other policeman, I was totally name dropping because I was trying to keep that police officer from looking at my car. He just wanted me to prove my brake lights worked which they did luckily. Then he started in on the boy’s mother because she kept ranting about me calling the police and trying to get their money. Come to find out it was the boy who called the police and his mother. I didn’t want a dime of their money, I just wanted to make it away from there without a ticket or my car being found out. If I got a ticket, I would never have been able to pay it. I would have gotten a warrant out for my arrest, and the price would have just added up.

    Major class issues there.

    Posted by E. K.(Kitty) Glendower | June 13, 2007, 5:24 pm
  23. AND I AM GONNA SAY IT, ITS SO MUCH THAT WHOLE FUCKING MOMMY DEMONIZATION…CRAP THAT YES, MANY FEMINISTS DO,

    THEY CONTRIBUTE TO THE OPPRESSION OF SINGLE MOTHERS AND THEMSELVES,

    WHETHER THEY REALIZE IT OR NOT,

    [LIKE THAT ONE BOOK THAT CAME OUT THAT WAS LIKE WOMYN GET CAREERS AND WOMYN WHO CHOOSE TO STAY HOME ARE SELL OUTS….YEA, NICELY SAID BY A WOMAN WITH A NANNY [WHOM MOST LIKELY IS A POOR WOMAN OF COLOR, OR WORST, A TRAFFICKED DOMESTIC SLAVE]

    there ARE NO GUARANTEES AND WHY WOMYN HAVE GOT TO REALLY SEE,

    IT COULD BE THEM, BECUASE WHEN THE SYSTEM WORKS, TO OPPRESS ONE,

    TO DEMONIZE ONE, TO REFUSE ONE,

    THE SYSTEM OPPRESSES, DEMONIZES AND REFUSES ALL OF US,

    AND OUR CHILDREN.

    YES.

    And you know, this is where I have had some real fallings out with radical feminists, too.

    You begin to talk about the things we’ve been talking about and suddenly you get this, “Why is that my problem?”

    Or they will say stuff that is conservative, Republican, Libertarian: “If she couldn’t afford to have kids, why did she have them?”

    Or something like, “Why doesn’t she force the father to pay up.”

    Dear goddess on high. I am too fired up right now to even begin to get into everything that is horrible about those statements, from the standpoint of radical feminism, any feminism.

    But let me say it does my tired heart good to talk about it here in safety with women who really do get it. Thank the goddess.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 5:26 pm
  24. Or they say they are radical feminists and then suddenly they want to talk about those really annoying “breeders,” not realizing that when they say things like that (not talking about joking with women they love, like me, there are actually some women who can call me a “breeder” and I will laugh with them) they are alienating MILLIONS of women, poor women, women of color, women throughout the world, and they are coming off for all the world like the privileged white radical feminists they keep trying to prove to everybody they are not.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 5:30 pm
  25. I read a comment on some supposedly feminist blog the other day by a man (I think) that said hating children is a feminist trope. Not one person disputed it. It was simply assumed to be so. I don’t hate children. How insane.

    Posted by E. K.(Kitty) Glendower | June 13, 2007, 5:32 pm
  26. womyn, upper middle class, trying to be Superwoman, work all day, keep the nice Better Homes & Garden House, work out in gym and keep that trim figure, make sure those kids act and look like the children [and that takes a lot of work] on the cover of magazines…and she’s getting two to three hours sleep so she takes a little upper, maybe coke, then meth…

    and that 20 dollar habit becomes 200 dollar habit and ole hubby now he don’t care cuzz his image, you know…that whole fricking ‘capitalist yuppie image’ shoved on people in their cubicle jobs and their cubicle houses…

    and eventually it all falls apart and she’s on the streets…

    Yes, ma’am. Most mothers are a divorce, a financial crisis, a car breakdown away from being on the streets.

    And then everybody is going to say, “Well, if she only would have __________________________.”

    She will be blamed, some way or another.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 5:34 pm
  27. Now how is it that feminists “hate children,” except that there are some who wrong-headedly and short-sightedly and foolishly pride themselves on not having bred, like all the stupid women in the world, in a way that is so arrogant, who knows how many women who might have been feminists never consider the actual reasons most women become feminists.

    I mean, if you get the same shit from feminists, including “radical” feminists, that you get from Republicans, why the hell would you view feminism as an appropriate response to your situation!

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 5:36 pm
  28. Heart,

    on the adjusting bills, on that you are right…and you know,

    it has also, a lot to do with family support, or where one lives, like in the city, its even harder…in rural areas, Sometimes, there can be more help, as its more community,

    but my point was, its easier to pull out or keep from winding up at the very bottom if you have some resources, even as single mothers…[and i bring this up because so many are in this boat and they don’t understand how womyn can wind up, in dire situations…because thats what they think, btw, thats Exactly why women in this country, some of them voted for yes, welfare reform and its because they think all womyn [and not just womyn- anyone] can ‘pull themselves up by the bootstraps’ cuzz if they did then why can’t this woman]

    and a lot of people think like that Heart…because they just don’t know, until they’ve been there…

    You know, and I hear you and I know, this shit triggers you like it does me…I can hear it in your words and I am TOTALLY WITH YOU, know EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING…KNOW IT, FEEL IT…

    and you and I do have something too in common, we both are mothers of bi-racial children and you know, I know you do, how the system ‘further uses that against us’….

    [because that discrimination is there, in apartment hunting, applying for aid, etc, Esp in housing though]

    and Yes, the internalizations from the ‘stigma’ are the daily battles…even when you know mentally, that hurt and internalizations are there…its hard not to internalize when society throws it at you every day…

    there is this woman, you would love her, she’s a grandmother who has several children, single parent all her life, dirt poor, anarchist-feminist, VERY RADICAL AND OUTSPOKEN, she’s hit very hard times so i haven’t heard from her in while, her daughter’s husband was run over…but she said to me once, that ‘she’s been punished for being a single parent’ in a society where marriage and sexual controls and worth based on economic status have been used against her…

    and she is correct, and i don’t think there is a single mom out there that doesn’t know what this is…

    and in fact, i’ll take it a step further, i don’t think there are too many mothers who don’t know what this is…because in Any potential divorce, the First thing mothers think, is ‘How am I going to take care of the children’ [and i think that has a lot to do with why some womyn though they hate patriarchy they will support it, on a subconscious level, driven by fear…or at least this is what i saw in the South a lot, its like, they ‘adapt’ to the way things are because deep down, they know what the obstacles are, if they step out, etc,

    [and for womyn of color this is worse because they have the racial discrimination too, jobs, apartments, low wage jobs and economic segregation, and sometimes language barriers why I do think non-assimilation that is ‘pushed by men’ is really more about ‘control over womyn’ sometimes…I say this because I’ve seen too many Chicano womyn, Latina womyn who can’t speak English and the men or husbands if there is abuse, these womyn have an Extreme difficult time in getting out, Especially if there is children…but i see the other side of the argument too but for the womyn it a double edged sword]

    but anyway i bring up the class to bring awareness, because especially today Heart,

    we are seeing more and more womyn finding themselves in the low paying and lower economic bracket with job loss and globalization, etc.,

    and i think so many are just in denial….and poverty for older womyn is extremely high…

    and we are going to be seeing more womyn Vets who have severe PTSD winding up on the streets [and on East Coast, this is already happening]

    but i want to add too, its not just being on the streets…its having to juggle every month to keep a roof over your head and food for your children and always having that hanging over your head…

    and yea, the older the children get the harder it is because of needed money to pay for their education and activities so that they can build a future…

    one of the big gripes i have is the lack of programs for kids in districts for single mothers, esp programs for girls, and when its a decision to like you said, pay the bills or pay the $300 a year rec fee so your children aren’t running the streets etc…and many schools are cutting back programs, etc…

    [i think this is more so sometimes in rural and suburbs than in inner cities, i actually found there to be more in inner cities, now i know this depends on city] than in suburbs]

    but going back to the health care…this is why I strongly believe there needs to be a change in the system, not just reform, a change….

    because low wages build profit for the top elites…and you know,

    its majority of single mothers, and esp single womyn of color mothers, who are forced to work for even lower wages…with no access to health care, etc…

    and thats why, the programs are cut [or added, Piven & Clowell good book, Warfare Against the Poor and how the whole AFDC program was used to ‘keep womyn, esp womyn of color in the 50s-60s in ghettos’ in their place, and when its not needed or when society needs cheap labor programs are cut, etc and its all based on the devaluing of womyn, esp mothers, and ESP SINGLE MOTHERS…

    so my point is, its not just patriarchy, that needs to go, its the whole ladder economic system that is based on the exploitation and poverty of workers, and since the dawn of industrialization, textiles it began, womyn and mothers and children, have been the majority of wage slaves, in poverty, or near poverty…

    and the system, those MEN who control the system…know it, but sadly today, because there are those percentages of womyn who have been fortunate enough to escape that…

    dont ‘realize’, that it only takes a crisis, and if they avoid it,

    their daughters might not be so fortunate.

    and the one thing i see alot is the demonization of mothers, single mothers especially, and not just by the right wing either,

    and That is that whole capitalist thinking…if you are poor then its something you did or this or that…and it effects womyn in a very negative way, all womyn,

    just many don’t see it.

    and philanthropy, while its good, it alone, won’t solve it.

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 13, 2007, 5:40 pm
  29. You are so right, Tasha, this kind of discussion brings SO much stuff up for me.
    😦

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 5:46 pm
  30. Heart,

    there are feminists, [varying schools of feminist thought just like varying schools of nationalism, etc] that are of the belief that today, womyn due to having choice, if they get in these situations its their fault…

    i see this in a lot of younger womyn though, many who have not had children or been married etc and it is sadly to say, an increasing view…

    and it is I believe based on the fallacy of belief in the system, economic that is…

    and yea i’ve had discussions with [some] feminists who are of this belief, and i think that its the result of that yes, we have progressed since the 70s, as far as womyn can now enter non-traditional jobs, womyn work as CEOs, womyn can juggle both career and family and due to that,

    there is this misguided belief that because of these progresses then if womyn are in poverty or struggling then it is because they have not done this or done that…

    on several of the mother’s rights boards you see these discussions a lot, and yea i mean there are some feminists who are of the belief that there is no reason for womyn today to find themselves in these situations…

    and its that whole attribution thing, and it not that these feminists don’t deny that patriarchy exists, etc…they do, but in the issue of poverty, etc., there are those that contribute the problems to ‘individual choices’ i guess thats the word i’m saying…

    while not realizing the whole enchilada, so to speak. and again, i see this more in the younger feminists…

    and in yes some womyn who have succeeded in careers [and hey i think thats great] and yes they’ve fought discrimination and the glass ceiling etc, and they are feminist, no doubt…

    but in issues of economics they can be somewhat patriarchial…

    [and i concur with the socialist and far left feminists on this aspect, when it comes to class and racial oppression and how the infrastructure works to divide labor, womyn especially]

    there have been several books on this subject past couple of years…

    and i think a lot of it too, is due to womyn having to somewhat assimilate into patriarchial or man’s way of thinking to survive in the corporate world, to succeed and so some of them yes, are more apt to attribute poverty and so forth as a poor choice or poor choices rather than blaming patriarchy as a whole per se…

    does that make sense maybe i am not articulating this well.

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 13, 2007, 5:53 pm
  31. Heart,

    the ‘some’ feminists, who i wouldn’t say hate children, well, no, yea i guess i could because just last week, on another feminist board they were having this Exact discussion and so scary but true there is a increase in thinking that womyn who bear children are contributing to ills in the world,

    and that is why I chose WOMAN IDENTIFIED FEMINISM, for that reason…

    and i think its all tied somehow in that whole ‘gender deconstruct’ philosophy [and some of that is Marxist feminist/one school, there are splits there and in some socialist feminism, some splits there too]

    and in scientific feminist which i’ve heard some about, from some of the younger womyn but i don’t know a lot about those theories…

    personally i think a lot of it is how feminist has been infiltrated or maybe thats not the correct term here, but how due to backlash, and/or due to changes in society, due to male encroachment, due to economics and technology etc…

    feminist theory like any theory splits off into different schools but i will say that is why I think personally that Radical Feminism is the Feminism that is Woman Identified…

    someone can help me here, lol, hard for me to explain but i know i’ve seen differences on feminist theories and discussion boards, etc,

    i’ve definatley seen the splits in far left feminism, and also, why in many ways yes, Eastern feminists [generally speaking] or womyn of color do reject tenants of western feminism and i do think its due to some of the anti-mother philosophies…etc

    but thats what i’ve observed, how to say this,

    ok i think what womyn, generally speaking, have done due to backlash, etc., and Especially due to assimilating in the corporate/career world, there has been this movement towards elevating the values of men, patriarchy, in ways and demeaning the woman things…like motherhood, like nuturing, etc…

    the things men have used to demonize and trivialize womyn throughout the decades, and to use to keep womyn subjugated,

    so like there is this school of feminist thought that in fighting for equality has assimilated into those values…

    and it ties to labor too, because the caring jobs [and i just saw today, on another board how a court, ruled against home care workers, i’ll post it here] and child care jobs because they are traditionally womyn’s work,

    are devalued therefore are paid nill to none, and why its in these jobs too that domestic slavery/trafficking and especially womyn of color who are trafficked, etc…are tied into that whole devaluing of womyn’s labor and motherhood.

    this is where i ran into conflict too with the far left because i am of the belief that motherhood is a contribution to society, not that it should be a ‘forced construct’ no, but it is, a contribution therefore, the nuture work is just as or more important and should be not only valued but paid well,

    and many were in strong disagreement and some of the feminists that disagreed on that said that to value those feeds into biodeterminism and so forth…and gender divisions, etc.

    i think its the other way around, i think the problem has always been that womyn’s ability to bear children and nuture [and these traits vary of course, to woman to woman, and i am in now way saying hey this is what womyn are and this is what their place should be…like ok conservatives do, no, not saying that AT ALL and I totally support womyn who choose NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN BECAUSE THEY CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIETY JUST AS MUCH, SO WANT TO ADD THAT THERE…i just don’t think one is more valued or important than the other]

    but i think the problem is the devaluing of these things and why the traditional jobs so to speak, are the most devalued in the world today, and lowest paid or slave jobs…literally slave,

    and if there was value on them like there should be, like unpaid labor in the home, then patriarchy would be not able to force constructs or exploit womyn in this way…

    and i came to evolve to this Heart when I fought welfare reform because i got so tired of hearing people [and yea, some feminists, again, some] saying,

    ‘well get a job’ or ‘these womyn this or that’,

    well, guess what, TAKING CARE OF CHILDREN IS A JOB, A FULLTIME JOB, AND A WORTHY JOB,

    A JOB THAT TAKES SKILLS, LOTS OF SKILLS,

    and so, when mothers are devalued, so are child care workers, so are nurses, so are teachers, so are home care workers, so are textile workers, etc,

    and to me, these jobs are just as if not more so, important than the jobs that traditional ‘male’ roles and patriarchy have deemed as like these high things to strive for…

    a Healthy Society, is a Society that Values All Workers, and that includes DOMESTIC WORK, INCLUDING UNPAID WHICH SHOULD BE PAID, YOU KNOW USA IS THE ONLY DEVELOPED COUNTRY THAT DOESN’T HAVE ‘MILK MONEY’ FOR CHILDREN…WELL NOT SURE NOW WITH EU BUT EUROPE USED TO HAVE MORE VALUE TO MOTHERS..UNDER SOCIALISM, THAN US HAS EVER HAD…UNDER CAPITALISM, same for CHILD CARE…

    and too, A HEALTHY SOCIETY VALUES MOTHERS AND THE LABOR THEY DO…

    [but not meaning we should have like conservative constructs, narrow constructs, etc…or like esteem motherhood in the way like some countries do which really isn’t esteem at all its just keeping womyn barefoot and pregnant…so not saying that…at all, really want to emphasise that]

    i just think if we valued motherhood we as womyn would be valued, whether we choose to be mothers or not.
    🙂

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 13, 2007, 6:21 pm
  32. there are feminists, [varying schools of feminist thought just like varying schools of nationalism, etc] that are of the belief that today, womyn due to having choice, if they get in these situations its their fault…

    it is I believe based on the fallacy of belief in the system, economic that is…

    YES.

    That right there. That’s EXACTLY what it is!

    They “believe in the system” — even though they really don’t think that they do! Even though they say they don’t and can go on and on about the injustices and wrong inherent in capitalism and “free market economies” so-called and can talk your arm off about the World Bank and the WTO and the wrongness of U.S. imperialism and yet when it comes to women, that is evidenced for the detached, head knowledge it really amounts to as they get busy suggesting that the situations mothers find themselves in were all about our personal, individual “choices.”

    Thanks for that. Very very good!

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 6:24 pm
  33. It is not only based on the fallacy of belief in the economic system, it is based on the fallacy of belief in the social system, that patriarchy/male heterosupremacy are a thing of the past.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 6:33 pm
  34. Yeah, I was going to blog about the court decision about domestic caregivers not being entitled to overtime. Just beyond wrong.
    😦

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 6:37 pm
  35. The funky attitudes towards motherhood amongst some feminists are complicated. Some of it has to do with exactly what you say, having adopted the male-centered values of corporate America.

    Some of it has to do with deep resentment and being sick and tired of being, as a lesbian, invisible, being lumped in with all het women, many of whose primary concerns are birth control, abortion, and motherhood issues, when those have never been your issues, ever, and being expected to support mothers and het women *in* those issues when mothers and het women do not support *you*, including feminists, as a lesbian, your specific issues, and if feminists aren’t going to support you as a lesbian, who the hell will? Why are lesbians expected to fund your reproductive rights/abortion issues and organizations and needs and mothers’ issues when so many het feminists are completely blind to lesbian issues? Like the loss of lesbian/woman-only spaces, for example? Like issues around domestic partnership/civil unions? Like lesbian health issues, employment issues, and so on? Like lesbians being kicked out of their own organizations and venues, including by het women? :/

    Some of it has to do with deep resentment over being expected to be a mother even if the idea is repugnant to you, and distancing yourself from mothers for that reason, in an effort to challenge stereotypes, but too often, in the process, coming across as though you have your own issues with internalized misogyny (which you may).

    Some of it has to do with not wanting to face up to the fact that the Revolution for women hasn’t come yet, and things are even worse than they were, for mothers, 30 years ago, wanting to believe things have changed in the U.S., when in fact, we’ve been going backwards.

    Some of it has to do with resentment of mothers on the part of women who have troubled relationships with their moms or who wanted to be moms but couldn’t be.

    Some of it has to do with misguided notions of “het privilege” and assumptions that mothers get lots of perks and benes for being mothers (which they do not).

    Some of it has to do with rejecting biological essentialism (as you suggested in other words).

    Lots of reasons.

    Sigh.

    Heart, getting sad now, running out of steam

    Posted by womensspace | June 13, 2007, 6:49 pm
  36. Hi EK,

    i didn’t see your post till i was done typing…

    yea that whole car thing sucks don’t it, and you know they would have slammed you too, but not the rich boys,

    so typical….you know i got to laugh at this, have a couple of friends from Juarez ok,

    now well not a couple a lot, and I KNOW there are some womyn on here that will KNOW exactly what i’m talking about here, lol,

    but anyway, in the ole trailer park where we lived, there were a couple of families, non-documented workers and some documented, etc. and we were like all poor as fuck o.k., well anyway,

    they park management was always driving around like the gestapo taggin cars, and majority of people hell they can’t afford insurance, and emissions, etc…so a lot of people take emissions like out of state, cuzz here were we are at its like ridiculous [and YEA I KNOW I KNOW BAD FOR ENVIRONMENT BUT THE BUSES DIDN’T GO TO THAT PART OF TOWN AND MOST CAN’T WALK 20 MILES TO WORK SO YOU DO WHAT YA GOTTA DO]

    but for many, like earning 5 bucks an hour i mean geesh, like car insurance, na, so without insurance no tags…well, lol, one of our buddies, they made tags, [the little stickers] yea from like computers…illegal yep, but when you don’t have a choice and you have kids and you have to get to work…

    and another family, he would go to auctions, and use stickers there…

    but i have to laugh at some of the creative ways, these guys did things just to survive…and its not like they were proud or were unethical but you know the samn insurance lobbyists are in bed with the senators and so forth and i mean just for liability, most making 5 to 6 dollars an hour can’t afford that…

    and when there’s no buses, what do you do? and yea i mean it isn’t fair to people who are working and paying and barely making ends meet either…[been on both sides of that so i know]

    but if you can’t get to work and you are out in bumfuck, sometimes you don’t have a choice and most of these families didn’t…[but oh the companies love to hire them so they can pay them nothing, no insurance, no paying their part of taxes, etc, no worker’s comp]

    i can tell you some horror stories what these companies, construction companies, etc do to immigrant workers…its like the fricking days of coal mines and child slaves in those mines before the 40 hour work week and thats no exaggeration…

    anyway the county annexed the land for development so most of the people [including us] had to move, but the park did the moves this way…

    they said, one day, they didn’t have receipts in the books, that one of the workers embezzled so they were asking these families to ‘prove’ they paid their lot rents, over past two years,

    and even then, they were sending out ‘eviction notices’, and the damn country judge, [and the families got a lawyer but it did no good] ruled against them anyway…made them leave,

    they had to walk away many of them from new mobiles [and between mobiles at $500 a month and lot rent at $500 – $600 a month] and they had to walk away, and that goes on their credit as no parks [due to city regulations and state] don’t take in older homes or these kind of homes, etc…its one hell of a scam,

    so these people were stuck, we moved before they evicted us but they tried, we were lucky though cuzz we had a dump mobile that was falling apart, mice infested so we were like, fine, here ya go…

    [it was all we could afford then]

    but for the immigrant families this was extremely hard, because they had to worry too about place to live, documentation, etc…

    [why i don’t support some of the ‘agendaists’ on the immigrant platforms, the businesses etc…cuzz they exploiting the shit out of these people, our neighbors and friends]

    but i remember my one friend though, he was so damn funny and yea you do what you have to do sometimes…poor people can understand this, you know…working poor, etc…

    but anyway EK yea your post reminded me of that…i’ve been a few situs just like that too, after my second daughter was born, just left hospital [she was being treated for that what its called, when their skin turns yellow and they have to put them under lights for few hours…11 years ago memory not too good here] but this guy, nice sports car, slammed into one who slammed into another who slammed into me, at a stop light,

    i in a car, [cuzz it was a klunker and i had just moved to the state like two months before i found i was prego] and it had no insurance, no tags, nada, license was still good but out of state,

    and i got lucky [i was living in car at time too, between renting rooms in basements, she was five weeks old i think, i was working in bar, but due to still hemmoraging not doing to well in the tips area, lol] but yea, only thing that saved my ass and my car [which finally had to be sold when it got booted year later to the scrap metal yard lol]

    was that i had Just left the hospital with her and had the release papers…so the cop felt sorry for me i guess…

    that klunker though, was our home a few times…big ole gas hog, lol.

    its amazing what we survive isn’t it?

    now i am near a bus, five minute walk away, [which buses are getting expensive now too] and its fine,

    until they go on strike…[which they did last year] and then well, its like, three hours to get somewhere that in car, takes about fifteen minutes…

    joy joy. 🙂

    [i think thats why a lot of us wind up as like anarchists, lol]

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 13, 2007, 6:54 pm
  37. What I did not like about the claim that feminists do not like children was it demonizes women even more than we are. It suggests that we will be the one that take the bad out on children, when the fact shows that men abuse children too if not more, men murder children, especially when they murder children to get back at their mothers.

    Sometimes I wonder if I would have had children if I was raised a true feminist. Meaning if I thought there were more options open to me other than being a wife/mother. However, having children or not, does not make me HATE children. It suggests that we are bullies and pick on someone who has less power than we do. WTF? I recognize oppression so that means I am going to act like an oppressor and hate children. No, actually that is what men are projecting. They hate women, so women must hate children.

    And coming from a male, it seems arrogant. “I understand you poor womenz.”

    If men think children are so wonderful, then why don’t men pay their fucking child support. If men don’t hate children why don’t they pay more to the care givers of those children, pay more to social workers, teachers, day care workers, etc.

    If men love children, why do they abandon children. Why do they molest children. Why do they act as if children slows them down. Why do men leave their children to join the war, why do they leave their children for high paying jobs, why don’t more men home school their children. Yet, it is women who hate children. If men love children why aren’t men standing in lines to be teachers, social workers, child care providers?

    Yeah, MEN LOVE CHILDREN.

    Posted by E. K.(Kitty) Glendower | June 13, 2007, 7:02 pm
  38. hmmm,

    i haven’t seen that from lesbians, just younger womyn, or corporate womyn…

    most of the lesbians that i know are very supportive of mothers but that just might be me,

    i’ve actually joined several lesbian boards, but most of them have died out, that i’ve looked at like on yahoo…

    for example, or most are just ‘dating’ matches, etc…seen a couple of those, and those too have died out,

    i’m actually very pro-lesbian, i think the more evolved i becamse as a feminist [even though i am married, but not cuzz i am like in love with het anymore, think i’ve been cured of that, LOL]

    the more at least emotionally i am becoming a lesbian, i know sounds a tad crazy or at least bi, but not in situ to like really explore that if you know what i mean….[i’ve actually read though that this is not uncommon with womyn who’ve been HET, in the forties, etc who’ve been married, but i don’t know too much, i have often wondered if we are all bi though, to some degree…but like, i’m not into that whole, like posting on like Craigslist [yea i’ve seen them] with the ‘oh i’m bi-curious blah blah] and all that..i actually identify with the lesbian posts on the personals, etc but probably due to being rad/fem.

    my oldest daughter is proud Bi, [yea I kind of proud🙂, lol, both of the girls are rad fems] and many of her friends are lesbians,

    but i will say, on the campus, where i used to go, its the other way around, used to be the womyn’s center had support for single mothers and womyn going to college, not its been taken over by GLBT and single mothers [non-traditional students] are now being the outside, even ostracized, i think is the word…

    but i have met lesbians who are not rad feminists, too, and that i sort of wonder about [one area i haven’t done that much study]

    but there was one forum i visited for a couple of months that was lesbian/bi and the discussions were pretty good, i learned a lot but it eventually got taken over by the BSDM and fights over bi-racial lesbian couples and lesbians vs bi and bi vs lesbian and one lesbian i remember, sort of got into it with her because she was saying bis were the reason for aids…

    i was like ‘wtf?’

    and some of them were like conservative, and on that i was like, OK now i know things are getting weird,

    but you know all in all we’re all in the same boat when it comes to misogyny and patriarchy but i think sometimes, like esp in our society its easy to forget that if like you’re living life, going to work, have your friends and are doing somewhat o.k. and unless issues are like right there in front of you,

    its easy i think for some womyn to get comfortable, or complacent, and i think Thats where sometimes divisions and misunderstandings come in…because its easy to not see the common link of patriarchy/misogyny and how we’re all effected.

    that and i do think we are seeing too, generational gaps, or at least i know i have…

    and in the media bombardment with sex and objectification and materialism, etc…has a whole lot to do with influence, on both HETS and BIs and LESBIANS…

    if that makes sense…

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 13, 2007, 7:13 pm
  39. Heart and Tasha,

    Never have I heard so much truth being spoken in one place at one time, as the two of you have just done here.

    I have been there. Even with only one child, you quickly end up homeless, living in your car or truck, living in a single rented room with your child who was hidden from the landlord, then getting tossed out when she’s obviously there.

    And, yeah!! tell me ablout the “radical feminists” who hate both mothers and children.

    Radical feminism has been basically defined by *childless women*. Women who had the time and resources to spend going to meetings, setting up a printing press (we’re talking 1970 here). Know-nothings when it comes to the reality of 90 percent of the female population.

    Then, try being a “lesbian” separatist and the mother of a daughter. Whoo boy! I thought, if these are the “lesbians” who hate me (and themselves) so passionately for having a womb, who hate me 100 time more intensely than even the non-specific radical feminists hate me, where can I find the separatists who won’t hate me for being, essentially, female??!!

    Every female, every “lesbian”, is the fruit of some woman’s womb. Until the majority of the radfems, and *any* of the “lesbian” separatists get their heads around that, *or* until the Mothers of the Female ever get in a position to “define” radfem or lezsep, we are wandering in the wilderness.

    Sure I’m bitter. I’ve been alone for 35 years.

    Heart and Tasha, the last time I have heard such truth spoken as you have just done was in 1972.

    I love you both.

    Posted by Mary Sunshine | June 13, 2007, 7:26 pm
  40. well the ‘feminists don’t like children’ is the generalization used by anti-feminists to demonize feminists…

    and that wasn’t what i was referring to, [or at least i hope it didn’t come out that way],

    i was referring to the devaluing of mothers, how thats tied to labor, the nuture work, how ‘some’ feminists concur in points such as mommy wars, etc…

    but i’m looking at it from a class perspective, labor and historical perspective in how the divide has been contributed to [and it has been like fluid, meaning, throughout periods in development in the whole spectrum of feminism] by patriarchy, theory, etc…

    but i’ve always thought it had more to do with how class divides, how labor is divided and that its more of a trait we see in capitalist societies…

    [esp when you look at development of nuclear family/from the agragian to industrial and how womyn in Amerikkka were isolated from each other and in Europe, more than like in Eastern world]

    so thats where i am coming from…[since most of my studies have been oriented around labor, class, international comparisons, etc]

    i wrote about this not too long ago on my blog [and it was over thinking about the discussion on another feminist board which is a combination of various feminists and trans, etc]

    and i do see a demonization against womyn who choose not to have children too, [it works both ways] and i think thats also harmful to society,

    because its like, saying, all womyn contribute is children, like we don’t contribute anything else and you know as a mother thats not what i want to be known for,

    and thats exactly how patriarchy works…

    men don’t have this shit you know, if they have or don’t have children, they aren’t judged by that or demonized for it one way or another…

    its what they do, that they are praised for, success wise, etc [now class wise yea, men have same issues, etc as far as labor, etc just its different i think]

    but its like this,

    womyn who are mothers, are mothers for what [meaning in actual caring physically for children, in MOST cases, there are exceptions] 18 years, maybe not even that…so like, its not the only aspect of womyn’s lives…

    if i’m saying this right…

    so for there to be mommy wars, i think is counterproductive because whether or not womyn have children, they still are doing nuture work,

    usually its the womyn who care for parents, or for family members who may become ill or who care for animals [ever notice that high percentage of care for animals is womyn?] or who care for agriculture [80% in Africa alone] or who care for community,

    so if you really want to get to the nitty gritty,

    ALL WOMYN ARE MOTHERS.

    so to demonize one way or another, is to demonize ourselves and each other…

    i think a lot of mothers do hurt womyn who choose not to have children one, due to internalized beliefs and ‘society expectations’ on womyn, but i think too many times it is unintentional,

    like, i remember this waitress i worked with, [in my late twenties] and she was the first woman [in the South now] i met who was 40 and didn’t have children and that i actually talked to, and she told me she never wanted to have children and i was like shocked…

    but it wasn’t that i thought she was being a bad woman, due to society, etc., it was that i couldn’t understand [having a child] how any woman would not want that for herself [this was now before i evolved into feminism] but i thought, oh how sad, and i thought all the times my child hugged me and so forth,

    and she told me that she had her animals and that she never wanted children and she was very happy and i just thought it strange…

    now, years later, [after the oh my children are soo adorable ‘euphoria’ has worn off, lol–those teen years, don’t get me wrong i love them dearly but there Are days…] and having matured, having a bit more knowledge and also, wanting other things other than motherhoood,

    i look back now and I Totally Get what she was saying…

    but then, i didnt’. And I’m sure, at that time, she was probably very fed up with having to ‘explain’ herself and you know, she shouldn’t have Had to explain herself…

    but thats what gender constructs do, to womyn, rigid constructs, [ESP IN THE SOUTH LIKE IF YOU AREN’T MARRIED BY THE TIME YOU ARE 18 SOMETHING IS LIKE WRONG…SERIOUSLY THATS WHAT I GREW UP WITH]

    that was also in early 80s so you know times have changed a bit since then, but i do see how womyn still are put on that defensive and you are right,

    it a man said, i don’t want children we don’t balk…[now whether men do i don’t know] but its not like this huge thing, like they are stepping out of this ‘norm’ and where yea, men have that freedom, and why they have no issue with walking away,

    but now on womyn, its the ‘norms’ that when womyn make choices outside of those ‘norms’ then they are persecuted for it…[and its now working in reverse, for womyn to say, i want children and want to postpone career that is seen like, do What? After all the progress you want to do What?]

    because its going against a ‘corporate world norm’….

    but its still the same, its womyn being taught, how to police womyn, or how to re-inforce ‘norms’ on other womyn and self policing even…

    because our ‘behaviors, esp sexually’ are still under the control of patriarchial society/industry/economics, as far as what is norms,

    why I stress to HET womyn that hetersoexual supremacy is the most damaging thing there is because [and this is religion, gov, etc] it re-inforces ‘those controls’ men have on us…

    but that can work the other way too, in that whole forced gender deconstruct/social organization, e.g., forbidding marriages, lets say, if we aren’t careful because patriarchy can utilize and benefit from that as well…

    because that can work against womyn to as its or at least i have found, always done in ways that benefit men and hurt womyn…

    [i do think the hand-fasting contracts, that the Celts did, are a good idea…rather than patriarchial institution of marriage, per se…think the Celts had a good idea on that…and there are i think like 8 different contracts, mutual, that there is more freedom to walk from, but always with duty to children if children are born….]

    well anyway, gotta run…

    but I’m sorry EK that you have been persecuted like that, you shouldn’t have been, its wrong…

    and you know, with my bio-mom, there are some womyn who really shouldn’t be mothers too, thats a whole other issue but anyway…added that because some of the womyn who helped me, were womyn who didn’t have children.

    Peace,

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 13, 2007, 7:49 pm
  41. Hi EK,

    i didn’t see your post till i was done typing…

    Thanks. I thought I was being ignored. I meant to add, I was not on a busline either, which is why I needed to keep that car no matter what, because without it, I could not get to work, and the apartments that were on the bus line were either unsafe (really, not just perception, I have more than one mugging and/or attack story) or out of my price range.

    Kitty.

    Posted by E. K.(Kitty) Glendower | June 13, 2007, 7:54 pm
  42. I don’t have time right now to read all of the responses. For now I’ll just say, “But for the grace of God* go I.”

    *You may replace “God” with goddess or good fortune or luck or whatever noun suits you.
    🙂

    PS: Never, never, NEVER would I say, “If she can’t afford an abortion (or a child), she shouldn’t have gotten pregnant.” Well, maybe I’ll say that when people say the same thing of men. Could you just imagine hearing this from someone other than a feminist? “He never should have impregnated her if he couldn’t afford an abortion (or a child).” No, I can’t imagine it, either.😉

    Posted by CoolAunt | June 13, 2007, 8:15 pm
  43. Not sure if its the web or on my end, having troubles with losing posts,

    anyway, you know, MarySunshine, Heart, EK, CoolAunt,

    i think here is the problem…

    as far as feminists opposed to feminists around these issues, and its this [something i’ve been working on since getting into class/theory, etc]

    is that, gender, has been, defined, as far as how patriarchy defines gender or constructs, the ‘other’ o.k,. around labor, or children, needed for labor, etc…

    and over the years, epochs, etc., men came up with econonomic theories, industrialization came, human progress yada yada and well, the two main ones, Smith and Marx, and then, you have Womyn…

    time goes by, womyn are part of labor force, and roles redefined to meet econonomics not by womyn, but by MEN.

    now, we have age of information, global economy, etc…post colonialism, yada yada…

    and feminism, apart from all of this, to a degree, o.k. But, now, leftists, [far left] defined roles, in ‘social reorganization’ of womyn, to meet the needs of the state, and therefore, you got left feminism which with liberal feminism, has numerous similarities…and both, yes, were influenced by some, yes, MALE THEORIES…[esp economics]

    and what we see today, is So tied up, into those two branches, which are tied to what? Male Theory on Economics…which is why, sociology speaking, there is the huge divides, between mothers and non mothers, Hets and lesbians, young and old, white and black, etc…and its ALL tied into how womyn’s labor, has been defined, to meet the economics of Male Theories…

    mothers struggling, lesbians angry because they are struggling and don’t feel they should have to pay for this, low income womyn of color angry because of white priviledge, eastern womyn angry at western womyn because of imperialism,
    and all vice versa—ALL TIED INTO HOW WOMYN AND WOMYN’S LABOR HAS BEEN UTILIZED TO MEET THE NEEDS OF ECONONICS, BY MALE THEORY,

    see yes, feminists have had input, but there has NOT BEEN, IN THE HISTORY OF OUR TIME,

    A WOMAN’S ECONOMIC THEORY on the SCALE OF MARX/ADAM SMITH….

    and all politics, all societies, are all centered around Economics and Resources…so,

    [and this is something i’ve been working on since college]

    think on this,

    WOMYN

    ARE EXPERTS AT

    distribution of goods to their families even with limited resources
    distribution of goods/services to communities
    rebuilding communities that male theories have destroyed/war, etc
    creation of ideas and new business
    ability to manage resources, goods with limited availability
    distribution and management of food/food resources
    ability to recycle even the most what men think is of no use

    in ALL OF THESE, WOMYN ARE PROVEN, TIME AND TIME AGAIN, TO BE EXPERTS

    SO WHY THEN, DO WE, STILL FOLLOW AND WORK UNDER, MALE THEORIES OF ECONOMICS?

    THEY’VE BEEN PROVEN, TIME AND TIME AGAIN, TO FAIL…

    RIGHT, LEFT, CAPITALIST, SOCIALIST, COMMUNIST, THEY ALL FAIL…

    because MEN ARE NOT EXPERTS IN THESE THINGS…

    WOMYN ARE.

    see womyn are working to get political power, working to gain economic ’empowerment’ under male power/economic theory by males…

    what womyn need is ECONOMIC POWER IN COMING UP WITH A WOMAN ECONOMIC THEORY….

    see so much, of all we’ve talked about here is due to being under the control of MALE ECONOMIC THEORY

    ALL FEMINISTS, have been influenced to some degree, by MALE ECONOMIC THEORIES…because in MALE THEORY, WOMYN WERE ‘SUBJECTS’ OF LABOR PLANNING, SUBJECTS OF ECONOMIC PLANNING, ‘SUBJECTS’ OF SOCIETY PLANNING/ORGANIZATION…

    and this is why, we see, rad fems blaming mothers [male economic theory/Marx–that whole womyn are parasites crap]

    and this is why, we see, right wing feminists blaming working mothers [male economic theory/Smith–that whole division of labor and strong families equal strong economies]

    etc etc etc…

    any way you break it down, its because we are working liberation still under MALE ECONOMIC THEORY AND THAT INCLUDES ENVIRONMENTAL THEORY WHICH IS ECONOMIC SIDE…MALE.

    tada, lol

    seriously though…we’ve NEVER HAD, EVER IN TIME, A WOMAN ECONOMIC THEORY THAT SOCIETY IS ORGANIZED UNDER

    why capitalism, socialism, communism and yes, even anarchism [because thats SAY IT WITH ME NOW, LOL, MALE ECONOMIC THEORY]

    always works to pit feminists against feminists, its not just patriarchy, but its not just ‘class’ either because ‘class is a Male Construct under MALE ECONOMIC THEORY]

    and IN ALL ECONOMIC SYSTEMS, THE EXPERTS, HAVE BEEN THE ONES, WHO’VE BEEN SUBJUGATED THOUGH WOMYN, HET, LESBIAN, SINGLE, MARRIED, MOTHER, BLACK, BROWN, WHITE,

    HAVE DONE 90% OF THE WORK,

    WOMYN,

    AND MEN, WHO ARE NOT EXPERTS, HAVE BEEN THE ONES, TO DEFINE, ORGANIZE, SOCIETY, UNDER THEIR ECONOMIC THEORIES…

    so Not only do we need more womyn in office,

    WE NEED MORE WOMYN, TO COME UP WITH

    WOMAN ECONOMIC THEORIES

    away from the male ones.

    Ha, by golly I think I’m on to something….
    🙂

    Cheerio, for now

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 13, 2007, 8:57 pm
  44. “Domestic violence is the immediate cause of homelessness for many women and children. In November 2006, over 22,000 victims of domestic violence—12,000 children and 10,000 adults—received housing services from 1,243 domestic violence service providers. Domestic violence victims are often isolated from support networks and financial resources by their abusers, meaning they may lack steady income, employment and credit histories, and landlord references. Safe and stable housing is the most immediate need for survivors of domestic violence to prevent them from staying with their abuser or sleeping on the streets.”

    see complete pdf file and web site here:http://www.endhomelessness.org/content/article/detail/1647

    the above is so hard for me to read…and the state i’m in is one of the highest for homelessness, the home page has a map, stats, and thats ‘unsheltered homeless’…

    thats one issue that i have stayed active on, even in spite of everything in my life, cuzz that fear, is always there, once you know how easy it is to wind up that way…it is a trauma, i think, for me, i thought of this during working out on my blog journal,

    those periods in my life, were the most traumatic, because its like, everything solid is gone, underneath you, its gone…hard to expain but i know thats where a lot of the PTSD comes from, more than what i grew up with as a child, because even though the abuse was there, the security of a home was there…yea not much of a mental or spiritual security but that fear wasn’t there like on the streets type of fear, where you don’t know when you fall a sleep in your car in an alley in inner city if you are going to wake up the next day [from being murdered],

    or esp always worrying about social services pulling your kids [you know the womyn in Philly, huge huge revolution on this years ago, the tent city, was started by homeless womyn that the ss were taking their children…these womyn formed a tent city and there were these hud apartments and apartments just sitting there empty, for years, but rather than redoing these apartments they took the kids away from these womyn, i’ll look it up, i know the woman who organized that, spoke to the UN about it and last i heard, at the WTO protest in Seattle, the gov put a gag order on her…she’s the one whose son acted in that movie, Snow Dogs I think…shoot, i’ll look it up and post it here,

    but anyway, i’ve often wanted to start coops, for womyn by womyn, labor related and housing related…and there has been discussions on this on anarcha-feminists lists but womyn are so stretched thin and most barely surviving so the idea and the reality are two different things

    but i always come back to this…and the economics, etc. If we can come up with ways to ‘replace’ some aspects of economics and negative environmental impacts and some aspects through fair trade, etc…

    surely there has to be some ways we can begin forming these coops, networks, etc that not only work to assist womyn in housing, jobs, etc but too, assist womyn in getting out of prostitution, etc [and aiding in rescuing womyn trafficked, so forth]

    like why wait for unions to monitor, womyn could start their own moniter groups…

    like, just that, like Hollaback, we could have a Report Card of bad companies, who exploit womyn workers, domestic workers, etc…Think i’m going to do that, a bad report card blog for these companies, post cases etc and everyone can just add,

    and make it international, report bosses and so forth and be able to do it anonymous too in case someone wants to report and can’t afford the retaliation, etc…j

    same thing for bad landlords too, yea think i’ll do that this weekend,

    what do you all think? any ideas? you know i think there are so many brilliant woman minds out here in blogland seriously, been looking through all of them [after years of working in mostly male far left, its like a waterfall and gardenias let me tell ya seeing all these rad fems, goddess blogs and so forth]

    we know the strata of how things are divided are there, so, how to start replacing them…cuzz trying to overthrow them, thats a whole other ball game…

    but chipping away, like a couple of blogs say, well, now that has some impact, and it builds…

    oh btw, in above post, that should be het and lesbian not Het and lesbian, i’m trying to watch how i use caps, this thing i’m doing, why i chose to use i rather than I…its part of that whole reversing hierarchy via grammar thing and so i would like to re-write that as lesbian and het just for that…

    i don’t know all the abbreviations, etc., haven’t read much on gender and langauge…been sort of figuring it out as i go along…like you know i started from class war to war against patriarchy, not the other way around,

    so anyway,

    over the years when i was working in far left i would look at alternatives in economics [international scale] when i would see flaws, and write notes here and there and thats one thing too with the small business micro loans, like in former Soviet bloc nations, etc Balkans i was reading this one day and this study said that these loans usually run out in a year or so, because womyn can’t compete with huge corps and with gov corruption, etc all combined,

    why there is so much trafficking too and prostitution, so i was looking for ways to form coops, and MADRE i know, has some coops…

    so i know these ideas are out there and are being appllied, but on a larger scale, i’ve been working out ideas and theories…resources though, because men/patriarchy/structures own those resources is the biggest obstacle,

    and i’ve been getting TONS of ideas from these inspirational blogs here…

    so all in all, i’ve been working out a ‘replacement economic theory’ due to that in regions womyn are really oppressed under economic and other strata, war and military, etc…

    wouldn’t it be something if we could pull together a sort of womyn’s economic platforms or similar, that focuses and works from a woman identified and feminist perspective OUTSIDE OF MALE CONSTRUCTS/THEORY INCLUDING FAR LEFT–due to studies i’ve done on the reality of womyn’s economics under both applied communism and socialism, its still, very male paternallist and its not just double burden its triple burden…[including today in Sweden — high rates of depression, Denmark — mortality rate going up for womyn in a big way — so that tells me, not all is utopia, many parts of Europe womyn are working and only income for families as husbands have been out of work for years due to no jobs and these womyn are working in low paying jobs, plus having to do all the domestic and child care]

    and i’ve read studies too, on impact on lesbians/lesbian families in Europe/Russia and they aren’t fairing well either, especially lesbians with children,

    so, again, i think its due to structuring womyn’s economics under male theories [right, left, both main ones, by males]

    so, o.k. well i’ve going back to work on this…so any suggestions or research or anything any here can provide, feel free to email me.

    maybe can’t pay all those student loans lol till i’m 99 if i live that long but can make use of what i learned,😉 what the hell…better than not using it,

    know a woman from Hungary was telling me that womyn in the US, during the days of IWW strikes, etc, did form coops, to keep from having to prostitute and because of gov harassment and yes murders of strikers, etc…

    so if this was possible then, its still possible…thinking out loud here

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 14, 2007, 3:46 am
  45. Tasha,

    Thank you for your brilliant post. You are an intellectual powerhouse. I get so much from your posts!

    You have an amazing and majical life ahead of you.
    🙂

    Mary

    Posted by Mary Sunshine | June 14, 2007, 1:24 pm
  46. Thank you Mary you are sweet, but i have a dark side too, not a good day today…

    i blogged last night and totally went balistic and violent [in words] towards wom’e’n who make all these justifications to trafficking and prostitution and now i feel awful but same time think, ok this is what it really is, so i will give you a dose and

    i feel sick but i know, knowing what that world is, knowing it and reading comments and esp comments against raf fems who are against porn and they say ‘oh some johns are kind’ and ‘oh i vacation in Thailand and these girls are happy’ or Holland

    and i just, something in me snaps, and i hate them as much as i hate the johns and the men…

    and then i see what you wrote this morning and i feel like this fricking toxic shit inside…

    you know Mary how do you fight the poison when there is so much in you, you know…

    sorry but i had to be honest, i know i have potential but at the same time i know what else i’m capable of and it is violent and horrid and dark and though i’m working through it,

    can’t deny its not there…

    so for any of you reading who think prostitution doesn’t do harm,

    well you are seeing it here…let me tell you i can blast those myths about empowerment and taking back ownership and all the bullshit lies that so many prop up…

    to enable this industry, and i wasn’t in it that deep or that long, but i have seen to many i know, lived with, die from it, die physically, die spiritually, die mentally….

    from poverty, violence, prostitution and rape/child abuse, esp when it leads to prostitution…/porn and yes, stripping, i know that industry too,

    don’t believe all the damn books out there, those are the ‘high end’ of the industry, and its the small percentage, and they are the pretty white girls, who bring in the big bucks…

    its an industry that is just as tiered as the corporate world, labor world…kid yourself not,

    but in the end, we are all throw aways.

    so if any of you cross my blog today, sorry for the violence,

    but sometimes i think a dose of truth, reality, really is what is needed to wake up some of the priviledged sleeping beauties out there, esp when they slam womyn who are fighting for womyn like me, like all the womyn and girls,

    and thats what really pissed me off,

    NEVER STOP FIGHTING TO END PORN, RAPE, CHILD ABUSE AND POVERTY, NEVER, NEVER STOP FIGHTING TO CONFRONT RELIGIOUS EXCUSES FOR RAPE AND RACISM AND NATIONALISM, NEVER…

    AGAINST TRAFFICKING,

    NO MATTER WHAT THEY THROW AT YOU, NEVER STOP…

    TAKE IF FROM A FORMER VICTIM, SURVIVOR AND REALLY, SURVIVOR, WITH WOUNDS THAT NO DON’T HEAL WITHOUT SCARS AND YOU ALWAYS NEED THAT CRUTCH, THAT MENTAL WHEELCHAIR, IT DISABLES YOU

    NEVER STOP FIGHTING…

    I LOVE YOU ALL, FOR BEING THE VOICE.

    KNOW THAT

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 14, 2007, 4:22 pm
  47. ((( Tasha )))

    I have exactly the same dark side inside me, too.

    PTSD from father-daughter rape.

    Once we’re triggered WHAM!

    And although I don’t flame women any more, it’s only *very* recently that I have stopped doing so, and that *not* at the behest of any hypothetical feminist principle, but because it drains my energy and has no effect on the flammees anyway.
    😛

    And I assure of this: that you *really* won’t have the energy to sustain that amazingly satisfying behaviour when you get “old” – over 60.

    I think that the flames in the case of pornstitution advocates & apologists are *entirely* deserved. And, in fact, they serve the purpose, on the internet, of showing other womyn that, YES!, there are a few un-intimidated women out there willing to voice their rage, and doing so.

    How else can we find each other in a 99.99% fembot world?

    That is how the Women’s Liberation Movement of 1967-1972 emerged and manifested and grew as a force.

    Once women stopped being angry, and/or silenced each others’ anger, the WLM movement collapsed, and a “feminist” industry in the patriarchy emerged from the ruins.

    I feel that *now* (mainly from reading Heart’s blog) that the WLM, the *real* one is re-emerging by making women’s *real* knowledge of the patriarchy, and *real* resistance to it searchable globally.

    Rock on, Sister!

    Posted by Mary Sunshine | June 14, 2007, 5:12 pm
  48. You’ve all made some really inspiring points. I like especially Heart’s post on the cost of school. I remember taking band class, but it never dawned on me how much it actually costs to send kids to school, and further to put them in the extra programs that interest them. I remember being shown a brochure of instruments that I would have to buy, or rent, and I remember other kids getting some of the best instruments. My family probably could have afforded it, but renting was just fine. Still you had to pay.

    I think it is sad that women have to choose between marriage (men) and poverty. And that there are no culturally reinforced alternatives, because women were never “meant” to care for children alone. That doesn’t mean they were made to care for children with one man in a marriage. The fact that, if given a choice (people/women allowed to divorce) marriage -fails- as an institution is striking with regard to how we should best approach childcare as a society. Yet women are forced into this idea that because they cannot care for children alone, they need men.

    What they need is community. What they need is other women. What they need is to not be isolated from other women: aunts, mothers, grandmothers, friends, community by men.

    Men have the fiscal resources. Men invented “jobs” that require “pay” and have kept women from them, along with isolation, insuring that women need them to eat. In a two person marriage, specifically a one woman, one man marriage obviously some one has to stay home with the children, so women obviously cannot do jobs.

    Men are continually paid more than women, chosen over women for jobs, promoted more often, because they are men. What is bizarre is the idea behind paying men more. Bosses state that they need to pay men more, hire men more often, and promote men more often because men have to “take care of families”.

    At the divorce rate and the rate at which men pay child support where are all these so-called families that men need to support? All they are supporting it seems is their cable bill.

    And it is the woman’s fault of course. She should have married him. She does not “deserve” “his support”.

    I think it is women that need to be paid more if anyone is paid more than the other because WOMEN are the ones having children, women need to take care of CHILDREN not MEN. Society is continually giving men the out when it comes to taking care of children. Women have to take care of children.

    So it, to me, just seems that poverty and not hiring women or promoting or even paying women equally is just a way to PUNISH women for not marrying a man, not finding a man, having a child without a man, not being a culturally acceptable woman, or not staying with a man in a relationship who impregnated her.

    Posted by Kiuku | June 19, 2007, 3:38 pm
  49. It would be interesting if a project..a women helping women out of poverty project could work. Unfortunately there are so many problems with poverty, such as drug abuse and ill-connections that it would be hard. But there are so many homeless women, and so many women with children about to be homeless, that I can’t help but wonder if a community project were to start up, where a single mother family could take in a homeless woman, and the homeless woman could provide childcare in exchange for a place to live.

    Posted by Kiuku | June 19, 2007, 3:45 pm
  50. Kiuku you bring up some excellent points and truths, and they are all interlinked with race, class and gender.

    first, yes, the lack of community and that was the beginning of the transitions from agarian society to industrial, in the west, [and even prior to, such as the pioneers in the US, families weren’t so much community in areas, due to western expansion and the amount of space, physical, between settlers in some regions, so we would really have to take it back further to the transition from feudalist ‘common ownership well, labor wise, it was the church/noble lords who owned the land] but in the process of ‘privitization of land ownership’ i guess i’m saying is when we saw the beginnings of small nuclei, rather than communal ownership/even in labor] and that has a lot to do with the sole caretaking role over children/home being put on one woman [and i think, if memory serves me right, some of that was due to the Reformation too, as ‘idle womyn’ were deemed evil, so to keep a woman like running around like a chicken was deemed by Puritans to be the divine role of womyn–which was actually a type of restoration of medieval ages after the reinanscance [sic],

    but anyway…so i don’t know if its so much men per se, yea i mean male ‘economic systems’ which were originated under Religion and Empire prior to that, but i think this is where work–sociologically speaking–and gender roles plays a huge part, in the impoverishment of womyn, or what they term

    feminization of poverty.

    and the liberal movement [20s-30s], Marxism [huge influence on womyn taking on superwoman role/work and single parenting] and the sexual revolution [which had just as many negative impacts on womyn] has a lot to do with the situ we see today, esp in regards to lack of community,

    and this is one of the issues where yes, western feminism is seen by many as detrimental to womyn rather than helpful…but, thats due to the lack of awareness or refusal to see that even with community, due to the patriarchial institution of marriage [and economic dependence that comes with that] DUE TO AGAIN, THAT DEVINE ROLE PUSHED BY RELIGION, creates poverty [mass poverty in more traditional societies] and forced economic dependence on men and their families…

    why you see the amount of poverty in regions where traditional ‘mores’ are strictly enforced, if a woman is widowed or abandoned, with seven or more children, she is in dire poverty, why we see the amount of debt sales into trafficking and prostitution today–it has a lot to do with it. Debt bondage is a HUGE part of the whole trafficking industry, sex and labor, and not reflected upon as much, but it exists and until the economic ‘dependence’ on traditional roles is ended, no amount of censureship or anti-prostitution laws will change that…

    in regards to poverty as a means of punishment ditto, you hit it on the head, and its both, its used as a means to ‘force and keep’ womyn in traditional roles [meaning servitude to men] and also, is exploited as cheap labor source [due to servitude to male structure/devaluing womyn’s labor, esp in the home]…so its a double edged sword,

    and to add here, poverty is and was also used, to force womyn of color into segregation [economic Jim Crow laws and in the 50s-60s, think 60s, thats what the whole afdc program was used for, and how the ‘ghettoization’ was carried out — and enforced so the whole ‘generational poverty-welfare queen’ that was targeted in welfare reform,

    was actually A CREATION OF NONE OTHER THAN THE AFDC/GOV PROGRAM BY WHITE INSTITUTIONS/RACISTS IN THE 60S, and today, this economic ‘segregation via class now and race’ is done through none other than the

    ‘smart development plan’ which was, believe it or not, put into effect by none other than Clinton [and what we see today, the global regentrification and domestic regentrification]…so why really, in regards to economic stratications used to keep ‘certain people/gender’ in their ‘place’ is not just a right wing its a left wing, called Kapitalism…[ooh i know, but its true, don’t have to be far leftist to see it either]

    so its both patriarchy, and kapital because both [though patriarchy came way prior, and where the far left would differ in opinion on that, but that is what i believe] are the means used to prop up and perpetuate the economic oppression and dependence of womyn and children especially. And in that its tiered via class, but not so much anymore due to it being global…and we will see that become more apparent.

    as far as the drug problems–some of that is myth, well, a lot of it is, its one of those media [demonizations and btw, for those of you who may not be aware, the media is owned by none other than the defense economics…serious, follow the money trail, you’d be amazed], but anyway,

    there is actually MORE drug use in suburbs, and among middle to upper class than among the poorest of poor, drugs cost money, and unless one is like in prostitution and the cartels are keeping the drug flow [to keep womyn compliant and they are easier to control that way if they are drugged up and addicted] or unless one is like runnin for the gangs or dealing, you won’t see a lot of drug use in homeless community. The percentage of alcoholism is actually higher, as its not difficult to get a couple of dollars pandering to go to the corner liquor store and buy a half pint, but those percentage of homeless too, are not the ones you see often in shelters unless its like dire cold,

    yet the media portrays them, as The majority of homeless, and get this, you know in the areas where there is homelessness/or where homeless hang out, and in the more poor of areas,

    you will see more liquor stores selling the cheap liquor, no kidding, but its true. Why is that? Well, keep people mentally pacified they don’t revolt [why the Black Muslims, are on That point, esp in the drug runnin in low income/inner cities–they are Right on with that, and it IS, I CONCUR WITH THEM, A GOV STRATIFICATION]

    hemp its the same damn thing, but meth today i think is the most dangerous ‘orwellian mind control ‘ there is, that and prescribed anti-depressants [not to say there isn’t need for them, or to demonize those on them, not that at all — so please don’t take it this way, i know people who ‘need’ anti-depressants, not knocking them] but the INDUSTRY ,behind it, thats a different ballgame and why you will see, targeted to ‘low income and to womyn esp in poverty’ all sorts of testing and experiments to aid in the mass sale/push of pharmacueticals which are used, yes, to mask

    frustration and anger, justified anger in a nation where people are realizing more and more, something ain’t right. [Michael Parenti, if you can get that book, “Democracy for a Few” and “Friendly Fascism” [can’t recall author but That book, will scare the shit out of every thinking Amerikkkan]

    but womyn are at the mainstream of those who are the targets of exploitation, and yes, so much of it is ‘social controls’, and whats really scary is how much the younger womyn are targeted, esp with the sexualization of work.

    as for single womyn helping single womyn, sometimes that happens but here’s the thing with that,

    guess what happens when single mothers start that–

    laws, thats right, laws,

    laws that oversee childcare, discriminate against poor single mothers, no kidding, because if they find you are doing daycare then you have to meet all these qualifications and its based so much on ‘expense’, home has to be so much certain size, there has to be all these other ‘adjustments’ and they cost money,

    that, and housing laws, [and this is where it sort of pisses me off to with the landlords who will overlook ten nondocumented workers or families of lets say, 15 people, –and yea i see them, right next door to me o.k., and they’ll over look that cuzz hey, they can get cheap labor under the table in construction, carpet laying/floors, painting, etc for like 2.00 an hour, no joke so they’ll overlook it] but let a single woman or three single mothers with children try that,

    and they’ll have social services, the city code people, and the health dept banging on the door and enforcing laws that restrict people into so much square space.

    [yea this is one thing that no one talks about either and in mobile home parks you see it all the time, why i hate a lot of disgust to the liberal pro-immigrant BUSINESSES/LAND OWNERS/CORPERATIONS cuzz they ain’t concerned with worker’s rights or immigrants or Mexicans hell no, its the cheap labor they exploit, while they get rich]

    you see it in inner city too, but anyway,

    thats why you don’t see a lot of single mothers helping, because any time there is any attempt to form a type of collective, the gov/city law enforcers are the First to slam down,

    this goes to individuals to helping homeless, like, in state where i am, some examples,

    Nuns who had a small food bank–forced to close down cuzz they were running it from small kitchen and laws said it had to be this, this, this and by the time you have all that expense you might as well run a restaurant,

    individuals who hand out sandwiches, same thing, they get slammed, don’t have permits don’t have this,

    food not bombs runs into this crap all the time and in fact, the FBI put them on TERRORIST LIST

    and its all because, society [infrastructure] criminalizes poverty so if people try to do something, they go after them…its called the MANAGEMENT OF LABOR SURPLUS,

    in Florida, you can be arrested, no joke, for giving a homeless person a sandwich…

    and this is becoming law in city to city…the reason,

    ‘well if people help them they won’t get up and get jobs’,

    What jobs? Day labor jobs, well, those are taking up with non-documented workers who are forced [due to even more poverty and poverty their families have back in Mexico] to work for less than minimum, and with no worker protection…why you will see, Mexican men and womyn, get injured on jobs, and the bosses say, tough, go home, and there is no compensation, no worker’s comp, and if they complain, guess what the business/day labor say…

    ‘complain and we can hire this man here, or complain and we can call INS…so these workers are exploited as hell’

    why when liberals and neo cons who say, well there isn’t that worker division, obviously don’t have a fucking clue…cuzz there damn sure is [and you see the tension when you see the divide between non-documented workers and African American workers who are dirt poor and discriminated against]

    and this applies to womyn, moreso….

    [and for workers across the borders its twenty times worse, where our gov and their gov, the crooks, have police/military corrupt as hell, SHOOTING AND KILLING AND RAPING LABOR LEADERS AND WORKERS WHO COMPAIN, FOR THE MOST BASIC OF WORKER’S RIGHTS WE TAKE FOR GRANTED HERE]

    and all of this is tied into feminization of poverty [why i detest the nationalism too, because that whole traditional roles for womyn crap, is a big part of the reason we see womyn working in sweatshops, not just here but worldwide, doing textile work, domestic work for less than slave wages, some for no wages at all–in China, they just exposed on film, thousands of children beaten, literally beaten into slavery, and the gov was like, oh we are shocked’,

    YEA LIKE HELL THEY WERE…

    and the enslavement of children IS PART OF THE FEMINIZATION OF POVERTY AND PATRIARCHIAL ‘INSTITUTIONS’ THAT FORCE RIGID/ECONOMIC DEPENDENCE ON MEN, ONTO WOMYN….

    its definately a TRICKLE DOWN ALRIGHT,

    TRICKLE DOWN OF THE SLAVE LADDER….

    so forming collectives [and anarcha-fems discuss this all the time] is extremely difficult in a Kapitalist society…

    why, unless you have resources and some wealth, and by wealth i mean a house, land, cars, family resources, etc…that you can fall back on, and even then its hard if its single womyn, esp if they have children,

    its near impossible for low income womyn, esp impoverished, to form any type of coop, due to how poverty and even the POVERTY INDUSTRY, esp in how aid and housing is distributed and THIS is where you can REALLY SEE, HOW THE SYSTEM DIVIDES BASED ON RACE,

    AND THEY’LL DO IT BY, SENDING WHITE POOR WOMYN TO LIVE IN THE NICER PROJECTS, AND THEN WOMYN OF COLOR TO THE CRAP PROJECTS…

    i’ve seen it, they do it, and its a deliberate attempt in KEEPING OUT, CLASS SOLIDARITY,

    cuzz if you ever get that CLASS SOLIDARITY,

    the SHIT GONNA HIT THE FAN and the robber barons KNOW IT.

    same thing with the GLOBAL BOYS NETWORK CLUB, IF WOMYN EVER GET THAT SOLIDARITY, TRULY GET IT, OUTSIDE OF NATIONALISM,

    THE SHIT WILL HIT THE FAN, AND THE GLOBAL BOYS NETWORK CLUB OF PATRIARCHS, EVEN THOUGH THEY HATE EACH OTHER AND COMPETE,

    THAT NATION STATE, THAT RACE, THAT RELIGION, IS THEIR ‘TURF’ AND THATS WHY YOU SEE THE ‘RULES OF ENGAGEMENT’,

    THE ‘OH DON’T YOU RAPE OURS’ OR US ‘RAPE YOURS’ BUT HEY, IF YOU RAPE YOUR OWN THEN WELL THATS YOUR PROPERTY,

    YOUR HOUSE, SO RULES OF ENGAGEMENT [AND THIS IS RULE IN WAR] SAYS,

    HEY, WHATEVER BRO, CUZZ WE GOT TO STICK TOGETHER IN THAT ALL GLOBAL BOYS NETWORK,

    then they trade the porn and sales of womyn/children sex slaves back and forth and have a beer over the entertainment of such…

    KAPITALISM/PATRIARCHY,

    wreaks of the same filth. and the ones who pull the strings, those puppet mastas,

    they the maggots of misery, for millions of womyn and children,

    why BOTH, have to be OVERTHROWN.

    until then, all the coops and collectives, will fail, under attack…cuzz its a much larger infrastructure at work, behind it all.

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 19, 2007, 5:55 pm
  51. to clarify, afdc was created during depression–Roosevelt–but in 60s, or maybe late 50s, was ‘recreated’ as a means to force people of color, esp womyn, into ghettos and to keep them there,

    and it worked in combination with deliberate ‘city planning’ in how housing was in districts,

    this was also due to whites [the racist whites] not wanting people of color moving into their neighborhoods, etc,

    and its the same thing today among ‘racist whites’ with wanting no immigrants and wanting mass deporations, etc.,

    and how ‘regentrification works’ via development, to turn Chicano and African American AND some DIVERSE POOR WHITE AND/OR WHITE PEOPLE WHO DEVIATE FROM MAINSTREAM KAPITALISTE’ CULTURE

    out of upcoming ‘cubicle’ neighborhoods…its the same thing but its a mix now of race/class prejudice,

    and why you see womyn, white womyn included, the MASS MAJORITY OF POOREST OF POOR IN USA,

    and AMONG THE HOMELESS, THEY ARE THE MOST, IN NUMBERS, WOMYN WITH CHILDREN, FAMILIES.

    but point is, its the same types of ‘means to an end’, to control the mass labor surplus,

    now here’s the scary thing and something Marx himself predicted [in Philosophic Manuscripts] IS THAT when there is an excess of labor surplus,

    and add Malthusian politics to that, you get

    PORGRAMS/GENOCIDE, when the masses become to large to handle…

    and why, we have, such a large WAR INDUSTRY TODAY.

    something to think about, esp with the talk of war with Iran.

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 19, 2007, 6:22 pm
  52. oh, and one more thing,

    think on this, ERA–AND THE DRAFT, OF WOMYN, being brought up…again,

    right during the time, of talks of going to war with Iran….

    kid yourself not, the two are tied, and the whole thing with the womyn in combat ERA, etc.,

    is if you read the legislation, it says, in regard to rape of womyn in service,

    “that there is “at least” a “minimum” enforcement such as there is in civil cases [para mine]

    well, shit, that isn’t saying much is it, there isn’t a whole hell of a lot of justice for womyn in the Civil SYSTEM,

    so, that, i mean its a joke…

    not only that, they are forming a war society that basically is,

    worker killing worker, and woman killing and assisting in the rapes/murders of other womyn,

    WOMYN WHO HAVE NOT A WHOLE HELL OF A LOT OF INFLUENCE AND SAY OVER POLICY…

    and its patriarchial and misogynist as ever…and i would not support it. and the travesty is,

    there is womyn raped by their own military comrades, and there IS NO JUSTICE,

    so, its like a triple betrayal, but i ask,

    WHO BENEFITS? WOMYN SURE AS HELL DON’T, NOT WOMYN HERE, NOT WOMYN IN IRAQ,

    AND DEFINATELY NOT THE WOMYN IN IRAN. all that comes, is a hegemony of more extremist womyn haters in power…

    so yea, its important to see how the how labor surplus and effects and feminization of poverty,

    will be used, to push womyn into that war machine via force…

    via the draft, cuzz the whole damn institution is based on poverty recruitment and poverty porgrams,

    i saw a show other day, about how the US, used Canadians, during WWII, they trained /assisted these Canadians, boys young men, who had no experience in warfare ok.,

    to go to France [a prep for D-DAY] and they literally sent these young men on a suicide mission [without their knowledge of full details] AND 5,000 CANADIANS WERE ON THE BORDERS GETTING SLAMMED HARD BY GERMANS, VIA AIR, NAVY, LAND,

    AND THOUSANDS DIED, and it was done, to see, ‘how strong the German forces were’

    and it was a deliberate ‘genocide type of mission’, geo-political ‘lets sacrifice them, before sacrificing our own, typical superpower politics,

    but it was horrid, it really was and I just kept thinking how we don’t hear about these truths, in schools, etc…and how we wonder why countries are so opposed to US and to the whole Superpower economics/militarization…

    well gee, i wonder, you know, 5000, and the US, owes Canada, a huge debt, for that, seriously…

    so its not just race priviledge, it really is class and nation-class priviledge. and those 5000 men, there were 5000 mothers, who suffered,

    why i think that whole war machine and sure, not to say that WWII wasn’t necessary, even the Canadians who survived said that they’d do it again, as to not would have meant disaster, but you know what i’ saying…

    its the least at the bottom of the slave ladder, that they always will sacrifice first,

    so why i think the ERA and this whole war with Iran, will just cause more misery for womyn, esp poor womyn.

    but then, i trust nothing that Kapital does, no matter how ‘equal’ they try to make it appear

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 19, 2007, 6:46 pm
  53. lol, i had better clarify,

    though i in many ways have a lot in common in regards to Kapital in far left,

    i’m in no way in agreement on several things [though i can understand the rage behind them, what causes these things and i at one time was one of the more militant extremists]

    but, like, i’m in NO WAY IN FAVOR FOR STATE KAPITALISM OR STATISM, CENTRALISM OR VANGUARDISM…

    not into that whole we all wear the same ole uniform and get our de boots and bread from de lines and wear our hair the same way and all that…lol,

    [yea there are those still out there] and that whole lets have a genderdeless, raceless, borg world,

    YUK. seriously, and ever notice, how all that, was some warped plan from some ‘man’ or ‘men’ who as Adrienne Rich i believe, i one of her poems said, they want to ‘take the place of god’

    well anyway, thought i’d like throw that out there, i think, well, take Michfest, good example,

    at what collective power can do, and its awesome, so, why WOMYN need to come up with an ECONOMIC THEORY, seriously,

    cuzz even in anarchism, you see the ‘malearchy’ lol, yea thats what the anarcha-feminists term it and they are so right on there…

    in other words, i am of the left mentality that is the ‘workers owning’ as workers, not as state, not as some centralist ‘elite’ structure, etc…

    and i can give you one great example, of workers taking ownership,

    the textile womyn workers in Argentina, who started the whole TAKE BACK, they took ownership of a textile factory that was shut down, and they started an autonomous worker revolution in doing so,

    one out of the control of both right fascists and left fascists…

    [thats another awesome documentary btw, TAKE BACK] but anyway, you need solidarity though to support, globally,

    and why I KNOW WOMYN WILL BE AT THE FOREFRONT OF THIS REVOLUTION,

    they already are…i LOVE, LOVE LOVE LOVE THE INDIE WOMYN SITES ON THE RIGHT HERE, IF YOU HAVEN’T LOOKED AT THEM, YOU REALLY SHOULD,

    THEY ARE AWESOME!!! Like, gypsygirlguide and worstedwitch,

    wow, i got SO INSPIRED, THAT I ACTUALLY STARTED GARDENING AGAIN,

    something i haven’t done in years with all the depression, etc…and i took the seeds i had, and a wicker bunny, found in the trash, and cleaned her up and painted her yesterday and she’s in the garden among the flower beds,

    i did have to buy dirt/manure but at a 1.00 a bag, that was the only expense, so i may be eating ramen for a week but you know, lol,

    it was SO THERAPUTIC, and all day yesterday there were giant butterflies and all these birds and a couple of ravens just flying over back and forth so i dedicated the garden to Mother Earth and its now going to be a Goddess garden…

    of course my kids think i’ve gone off the deep end again, lol [what else is new] but i know this garden, not huge, not fancy but it will be a place, that is going to be a place of healing,

    i’m growing vegies too, going to attempt, i worked in gardens as a teen, but you know i’ve forgotten so much, and i’m using containers,

    but i have to say the Indie womyn were my inspiration, took a few weeks, but it was like, i felt this burden being lifted off my chest…

    so yea, i mean there is POWER in WOMYN’S SOLIDARITY AND CREATIVITY,

    so anyway, thought i’d like explain that a bit…cuzz i will talk alot on Kapital and class, etc., but have strong disagreements with traditional ‘leftism’ as far as revolutionary goes…

    though i understand a lot of it, and yea, at times like dealing with poverty its really easy to get that frustration, but there are some dangerous extremes there, and i’ve seen it working in far left, that whole,

    oh socialist realist art is the only one of value and blah blah and you can really see how,

    in that way, its a type of euro-centric racism and definately misogynist as ever,

    because art therapy, is so important for so many children and womyn survivors of abuse,

    and to think that could be censured, so i have some ‘not conformist views’ in a lot of areas.

    Peace

    Tasha

    Posted by Tasha | June 19, 2007, 7:37 pm
  54. saw this today–fell out of my chair–HUGE TRIGGER FOR ME AND IF YOU ARE LOW INCOME WHITE WOMAN–THIS WILL BE A TRIGGER—
    BUT–I WASN’T AWARE, OF THE HISTORY–OF THE TERM
    WHITE TRASH–
    ITS NOT WHAT YOU THINK AND ITS SOOOOO TIED TO GENDER–EUGENICS–WAS, NOT TO CONTROL WOMYN OF COLOR–NO–IT WAS TO CONTROL, TO KEEP POOR WHITE DEFECT WOMYN FROM HAVING KIDS–
    GOOD ARTICLE–EVERY WOMAN SHOULD KNOW THIS HISTORY
    That Ain’t White
    The long and ugly history of ‘trash’ talk
    By Matt Wray
    White Trash. For many, the name evokes images of trailer parks, homegrown meth labs, and beat up Camaros, rural poor whites with too many kids and not enough government cheese. It’s a putdown for the down and out and white. White trash is the name given to those whites who don’t make it, either because they’re too lazy or too stupid. Or maybe because something’s wrong with their inbred genes. Whatever the reason, it’s their own damn fault they live like that. They’ve got nobody to blame but themselves.
    On the other hand, white trash these days sometimes gets used as a badge of honor. Much like the way African American youth turned the despised word nigga into a word expressing pride and solidarity and the way that GLBT activists have turned queer into a source of dignity and respect, some white youth now use the term to signal rebelliousness and cultural difference—their refusal of a bland, mainstream white society that oppresses and stifles.
    And there is another popular use of the term as well. It’s sometimes used to name the rich and famous when they act badly or misbehave. So, despite her millions, Paris Hilton can be called white trash for her pornographic lifestyle, and George Clooney can tell us, in a self-mocking kind of way, that he’s really just white trash. This trend, like so much else in the world of white trash, was probably started by Roseanne Barr, who once famously said of her marriage to Tom Arnold, “We’re America’s worst nightmare—white trash with money!”
    All of which makes the reality that white trash names pretty complicated and confusing. Is it, as John Waters once said, “the last racist thing you can say and get away with?” Or has it transformed into a symbol of something like ethnic pride? Or is it just a comical phrase used to condemn—or sometimes excuse—bad behavior, like too much drinking, cussing, fighting, and general screwing around?
    And why should we care, anyway? What makes any of this white trash talk anything more than mere pop culture trivia? To answer these questions it helps to look back to the past, to see when and how the term arose, to think about the uses to which it has been put, by whom, and why. Surprisingly, the answers have a lot to do with our changing ideas about sex, class, and gender.
    Whether they use the term white trash or not, most Americans are unaware of its long and ugly history. If you had to guess, you’d probably say that the term arose in the Deep South, sometime in the middle of last century, as a term that whites coined to demean other whites less fortunate than themselves. Yet most of what we presuppose about the term is wrong.
    The term white trash dates back not to the 1950s but to the 1820s. It arises not in Mississippi or Alabama, but in and around Baltimore, Maryland. And best guess is that it was invented not by whites, but by African Americans. As a term of abuse, white trash was used by blacks—both free and enslaved—to disparage local poor whites. Some of these poor whites would have been newly arrived Irish immigrants, others semiskilled workers drawn to Baltimore and Washington, D.C. in the postrevolutionary building boom, and others still may have been white servants, waged or indentured, working in the homes and estates of area elites. The term registered contempt and disgust, as it does today, and suggests sharp hostilities between social groups who were essentially competing for the same resources—the same jobs, the same opportunities, and even the same marriage partners.
    While white trash is likely to have originated in African American slang, it was middle-class and elite whites who found the term most compelling and useful and they who, ultimately, made it part of popular American speech.
    Over the next forty years, the term began to appear more and more frequently in print. In 1854 white trash appeared in Harriet Beecher Stowe’s bestselling Key to Uncle Tom’s Cabin—her defense of the abolitionist play that had garnered her international fame. Stowe devoted an entire chapter to “Poor White Trash,” explaining that the slave system produced “not only heathenish, degraded, miserable slaves, but it produces a class of white people who are, by universal admission, more heathenish, degraded, and miserable.” The degradation was due, Stowe argued, in part because plantation slavery locked up productive soil in the hands of a few large planters, leaving ordinary whites to struggle for subsistence. But there were other factors as well: “Without schools or churches, these miserable families grow up heathen on a Christian soil, in idleness, vice, dirt, and discomfort of all sorts. They are the pest of the neighborhood, the scoff and contempt or pity even of the slaves. The expressive phrase, so common in the mouths of the negroes, of ’poor white trash,’ says all for this luckless race of beings that can be said.”
    Southern secessionists and proslavery apologists countered that it wasn’t the lack of access to good farm land, nor the lack of compulsory education, nor the lack of religious influence that made poor white trash so worthy of the contempt heaped upon them. In their view, the depravity of white trash had its source in the “tainted blood” that ran through their veins. As one educated southerner averred on the eve of the Civil War in 1860, “every where, North and South, in Maine or Texas, in Virginia or New-York, they are one and the same; and have undoubtedly had one and the same origin, namely, the poor-houses and prison-cells of Great Britain. Hence we again affirm…that there is a great deal more in blood than people in the United States are generally inclined to believe.” That is, the cause of poor white depravity was not attributable to any economic or social system—it was to be found in their inherited traits.
    By the 1890s America’s burgeoning eugenics movement got hold of this idea and never let go. Most Americans are well aware of the horrors of Nazi eugenics—the idea that through proper breeding techniques and controlling the fertility of the “unfit”, one can produce a superior race. But few care to remember that Nazi eugenicists took many of their cues from their American predecessors, who, beginning in the early decades of the twentieth century, successfully lobbied for laws permitting states to involuntarily sterilize those considered unsuited for sexual reproduction.
    Whom did they seek to sterilize? Whom did they deem unfit for sexual reproduction? While many eugenicists railed about the threats to the white American race from hordes of dysgenic immigrants, the core of eugenical science was based on field studies of poor rural whites. These studies of poor white families and kinship networks were carried out all over the East and Midwest, from upstate New York to Virginia to Ohio. Authors gave their subjects colorful names like the Jukes, the Kallikaks, the Happy Hickories, and the Smoky Pilgrims and documented a high incidence of criminality and violence among the men and increased promiscuity and fecundity among the women.
    Field researchers often produced evidence that they claimed demonstrated the deplorable effects of the “defective germ plasm” (what we would today consider genetic material) passed from one generation to the next, sometimes through the immorality of interracial sex, sometimes through the sexual predations of fathers on their own daughters, or between close cousins. The last two categories of illicit sexual behavior, grouped under the term “consanguinity”, were put forth again and again, in study after study, as evidence of the need to control the fertility of poor whites, whose incestuous, cacogenic (rather than eugenic) influence, combined with their promiscuity and fecundity, threatened to overwhelm and pollute the purer white racial stock of normal Americans. In a classic example of a moral panic, eugenicists whipped up widespread anxieties about sex, class, gender, and race and mobilized politicians and civic leaders to action.
    By 1921 American eugenicists had so firmly implanted fears of racial pollution through sex that fifteen states had passed laws permitting involuntary eugenic sterilization. Between 1907 and 1927, over eight thousand such operations were performed. Many of these operations were carried out on “feebleminded” men and women—those whom we would today regard as severely developmentally disabled. But an untold number were carried out on men and women whose only apparent fault lie in belonging to the class popularly termed white trash.
    Such was the charge leveled in the most infamous court trial involving eugenical involuntary sterilization in the United States, the 1927 Supreme Court case Buck v. Bell. In January 1924 Buck, who had recently given birth out of wedlock, was involuntarily committed to the Virginia Colony for Epileptics and Feeble-Minded. The director, judging both Buck and her newborn to be feeble minded, and believing that Buck was herself the daughter of a feeble-minded woman, wished to sterilize her immediately, fearing that her sexual promiscuity might lead to more children who would become burdens of the state. H.H. Laughlin, the nation’s leading advocate for eugenical legislation, took up the case and, without ever meeting Buck, testified that in his expert opinion, she was “part of the shiftless, ignorant, and worthless class of anti-social whites of the South.” In May 1927 the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the eugenicists and Buck was soon sterilized against her will. The shameful decision opened the door to eugenical sterilization across the nation and since then, an estimated sixty thousand Americans, most of them poor and indigent women, have been eugenically sterilized.
    We now know more of the facts in this historic case: Buck and her daughter were probably not feeble minded, even by the standard measures of her day. She had become pregnant not because of any sexual immorality, but because her adoptive father raped her. Her institutionalization was a way to hide his crime. In 2002, seventy five years after the Supreme Court’s decision, the state of Virginia offered a formal apology to Buck’s family and to all other families whose relatives had been forcibly sterilized. Since then, four other states have followed suit. Yet like so much bad law, Buck v. Bell has never been overturned.
    * * *
    The long and disturbing history behind the term white trash reverberates with meaning today. With us still are stigmatizing images of oversexed and promiscuous trailer trash women; tasteless jokes about white trash and incest; and a widely shared belief that all poor whites are dumber than the rest of us. The stigma of white trash remains an active part of our fevered cultural imagination and for too many Americans, it remains unchallenged. Those who use the term today would do well to consider its history.
    Matt Wray is a Robert Wood Johnson Health & Society Fellow at Harvard University and an assistant professor of sociology at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. He is co-editor of White Trash: Race and Class in America and The Making and Unmaking of Whiteness. His most recent book is Not Quite White: White Trash and the Boundaries of Whiteness from Duke University Press.

    Posted by Tasha | June 29, 2007, 6:52 pm
  55. hello,
    i live in california, where it is impossible to buy a home these days. I am a recent graduate with a bachelors degree in sociology and a recent single mother. I have a full time job but need a home. i pay $1,100 for a one bedroom. i heard there is a grant that helps single mothers buy a home. after searching google for hours i could not find anything. could you anyone please e-mail me and let me know. i am in need of a better living situation can anyone help me.
    marisolcsulb6@yahoo.com

    Posted by Marisol | November 22, 2007, 7:22 am
  56. Marisol, I haven’t heard about the grants you’re talking about specifically, but I do know that Habitat for Humanity often has built homes for single moms.

    Have you considered co-housing or investigating intentional communities? Cohousing Magazine is all about this kind of living which some women swear by, especially single moms.

    Maybe some of the other women here can offer ideas. I’m glad you asked because I know millions of women have this struggle.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | November 22, 2007, 4:52 pm

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