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Pre-2008 Posts

Teh Portly Dyke on Sexual Consent and Mutuality in Relationships

I am really enjoying the blogging of Teh Portly Dyke lately.  Consider this excerpt from her recent post on the issue of sexual consent:

These rape apologists individuals also say that getting clear consent before gettin’-it-on is a “mood-killer”, and one of them stated “unless a woman is chanting “Yes’ over and over for hours without interruption . . . . any woman can then claim withdrawal of consent.”

And that’s when it hit me — my fool-proof solution to the thorny issue of “consent”:

1) Get a clear “yes” from your partner before engaging in sex AND 2) BECOME A BETTER LOVER

See, I’ve never really thought of it as a problem if my lover was chanting (or screaming) YES! YES! YES! “over and over for hours without interruption” during sex. (“Don’t Stop!” and “Keep doing whatever it is you’re doing!” also do not disturb me in the slightest.)

She’s also got a good post up exploring mutuality and equality in intimate relationships.  An excerpt:

I’m not saying that this has not changed over my lifetime. The strictness of gender-roles has definitely shifted over the years. I’m just saying: It’s not gone yet.

…It’s been my experience that these days, while people are single, they (usually) realize that they are responsible to fulfill their own needs and optional imperatives. This hasn’t always been the case — a friend of mine who is now in her early 60s once said, when I asked her why she married immediately after High School: “Well, it was just what you did. You couldn’t hope to make it on your own”.

That’s why I’m often shocked to hear my enlightened, evolved, feminist friends having some kind of weird argument with their spouse about who is “supposed” to vacuum under the sofa/screw down the loose bolt on the shaky front stairs railing based on a status-quo rendering of “gender-appropriate” roles. 

So everyone should check out Teh Portly Dyke, who also blogs over at Shakespeare’s Sister.  I’m going to add her to my blogroll.

Heart

Discussion

40 thoughts on “Teh Portly Dyke on Sexual Consent and Mutuality in Relationships

  1. Thinking about Portly Dyke’s post about consent, the thing is, for so many men, whether women they’re having sex with enjoy it is so secondary. They might apply themselves to getting the woman to agree to have sex with them, but after that all bets are off. Like the male partners I’ve had who were obsessed with configuring my body the way the woman’s body was configured in the pornography they viewed recently. While I may well have agreed to whatever was suggested, if as it turns out it is painful, boring, wearisome, gives me charlie horses, doesn’t feel good, my agreement is going to be rescinded. But my experience has often been, my rescinding my agreement was resented either openly or quietly, with the guy getting agitated, along the lines of, ” Wait, wait, okay, you can lay down, just as soon as I get off, then we can do it the way you want to later.” And when that is the response, any version of that scenario, that is a *rapist* response. I may have said yes to sex and yes to attempting some wierd position, but when I learned didn’t like it and communicated that, that was a NO, I don’t care how many “yesses” to various things I had said up until that point, and when the guy insisted on “finishing” in a position I didn’t want to continue, that was RAPE. Of course I see that SO clearly now, ohmygod, there are so many men I would make pay now, if I could, for what they did to me, but I didn’t know back then what I know now. I thought that it was my obligation as a sex partner to attempt to “please” my male partner, and if it hurt or was unpleasant to me and I changed my mind, that wasn’t fair because I’d already said “yes” once. In reality, men that do this (they are legion), are not having sex with a partner, neither are they being intimate with a partner. They are masturbating into the body of a woman they don’t care about (no matter what they say). Their entire view of sex is, it is something to get from a woman, so they apply themselves to getting the woman to agree and after that, all bets are off, cause honey, you said yes. And in every case, these guys are rapists.

    Of course for fundie women, getting married is a rubber-stamp that is supposed to represent an ongoing, unretractable “YES.” Yes to any kind of sex the man might want to have, when he wants it, or be willing to face the consequences (which can include church discipline). Fundie women, many of them, are raped as a matter of course, over decades.

    What Portly Dyke is saying is so true, it’s just that most men really don’t care, when you get right down to it, whether the woman enjoys sex or whether they (the men) are good sex partners. They might get a charge out of it if they believe a woman has had an orgasm (whether she has or not), but that’s not at all the same thing as being a good lover, or caring about being a good lover. Or for that matter, caring whether a woman has said yes or no. Women can have orgasms they despise, resent and do not enjoy, even when they are being raped.

    All right, I was feeling really good this morning and now I am all pissed off.

    Heart

    Posted by womensspace | October 20, 2007, 5:00 pm
  2. Well don’t be. Cause I was feeling really pissed off this morning, but now I’ve read you, with me sitting here nodding, and saying oh my she’s just so right and fine with this, and this is just what I have experienced; why now I’m feeling really good.

    Men I’ve had sex with? Most of them, and most times, they don’t care if you are enjoying yourself, and in fact know damn well you are not, but that’s immaterial to them, or in now so many cases, part of what gets them off; you are not enjoying and/or are being hurt, that makes it better for them, because otherwise, they’d have to engage with you, have sex be a partnered, co-operative thing between two equals. As long as there is the pretense of you wanting sex (smile as you wipe the cum off your chin) you were enjoying it. It’s good. They’ve had sex. This is why women who pretend, and put on a performance, are complicit in rape.

    Posted by Sis | October 20, 2007, 5:20 pm
  3. Didn’t finish my thought; running out to get a chicken and my ride’s here:

    But of course I don’t mean they are willingly, or knowingly complicit. Even those who take money to pretend, or do the first snowjob on themselves with this pretending: I’m having such a gooood time; so empowered. Ummhmm.

    It is so important that we refuse to be complicit. That we help those who don’t see this yet, come to see that the personal is political.

    Posted by Sis | October 20, 2007, 5:26 pm
  4. you are not enjoying and/or are being hurt, that makes it better for them, because otherwise, they’d have to engage with you, have sex be a partnered, co-operative thing between two equals.

    SO TRUE. If they took what Portly Dyke said to heart, they would have to take their minds off of the heads of their dicks and back onto you and their relationship with you. They would have to deal with being clueless about your body and your responses — because every woman is different — and would have to place themselves in the egalitarian position of respectfully *asking* you for information about yourself BEFORE they proceed one moment further. Even if what that means is, the encounter is now over so far as the sex part goes and has become instead a discussion having to do with what certain kinds of feelings mean to you, how you are affected by certain words, sounds, actions, sensations, what they bring to mind, whether you are at the stage in your relationship where you feel up to certain kinds of things, whether you even *want* that kind of relationship, now or ever. Much much easier for these guys to just “get” the sex they wanted to have and then later say, “she said ‘yes,'”. Fucking rapist assholes, the world is full of them!

    I don’t mean they are willingly, or knowingly complicit. Even those who take money to pretend, or do the first snowjob on themselves with this pretending: I’m having such a gooood time; so empowered. Ummhmm.

    So true, Sis. There is one group of human beings which is KNOWINGLY COMPLICIT in rape in the way you describe, and that is pornographers. The message of MOST pornography is that it is sexy to overcome the resistance of women, that their “no” doesn’t really mean “no,” and that if you just continue to rape the woman, she will eventually say yes. When women participate in this and call it empowering, they *are* being complicit, whether intentionally or unintentionally, and of course, men are, as well.

    Someone is now going to say (not here, because I won’t approve the comment), but I don’t CARE about mutuality, I just want to f***! All the more important to negotiate *every single moment of the encounter.* A prostituted woman, or any woman, who agrees to be f***** because all she wants is to f*** still has not agreed to be raped, and if at any point during this f******, something hurts her, scares her, triggers her, is unpleasant, the NONRAPIST response is to STOP and make inquiry. You don’t get to rape a woman because you paid her for sex or because she said all she wanted was to f***, no strings. And if you think you do, if you WANT to, you are an incipient rapist, a crime waiting to happen. Of course, if men demonstrated this level of respect to prostituted women or women they only want to f*** who say they only want to be f***** by the men, this would spell the beginning of the end, I believe, of prostitution, because men would actually be encountering *human beings* *as* human beings, as opposed to masturbating into bodies. This isn’t quick, wham bam, this negotiating of intimacy in the way Portly Dyke describes. These encounters take time. They might end at any time because somebody got turned off and doesn’t feel like it anymore because they got to thinking about something else. There is not a “goal” in these encounters, like orgasm. That’s not the linear “end” to a linear process, because intimate encounters between people who care about being good lovers and who want mutuality are not linear. You enter into them realizing you have no clue what is going to happen next, because you are you, and the other person is the other person, it is all new territory. This is a place of vulnerability and risk and in my very prolific sex life of many decades, I have been partnered with only one man willing to go there, and even then, only under certain, very specific conditions, with a whole bunch of caveats.

    Okay, why did I get thinking about this this morning.

    Posted by womensspace | October 20, 2007, 5:56 pm
  5. I had sex (somewhat) with a man back in 1991 who during the sex became irritated because apparently I was not enjoying it (him) enough to his liking. As he left in disgust (and he did not “finish” anything), he slammed the door and made noises outside with his truck, the whole tires squealing and engine revving performance. A few weeks later when I saw him around he yelled across the way, “You fucking cunt.” Or it may have been bitch. Shrug. I think he told a few people as well, as if it was going to make me look bad. Sort of like the time a boy in high school (my senior year) told a group of boys during a daytime gymnasium dance that I was a bitch because I would not put out. We had left school going to what I thought was lunch at Burger King to end up parked in some alley behind some houses with him getting pissed off because I would not have sex and would not stop mentioning Burger King. Like duh, it was lunchtime, and, the fucker was not even my boyfriend. Asshole. I think he is now married to a Sanctified woman and is a preacher.

    Posted by ekittyglendower | October 20, 2007, 6:08 pm
  6. The message of MOST pornography is that it is sexy to overcome the resistance of women, that their “no” doesn’t really mean “

    This is also a common trope in mainstream culture as well- usually only so overt in older films, like Gone With the Wind and Pale Rider, etc, but it’s also seen recently in Family Guy (oh oh oh how I HATE that f***ing show!!). I think it’s also not just in porn where the woman’s enjoyment is irrelevant (tho that is where that dynamic is at it’s most obvious and extreme), it’s also in comedy shows and everyday culture. Just the other evening I was watching The Office, and at the end, when a couple were talking about finances, the woman said she could sell her breast implants, they were kind of uncomfortable anyways- and the guy is like “oh no, they’re cute, I like them” etc- speaking over her while she’s talking about discomfort and the loss of sensation in her nipples. This is funny apparently. For a man to try and get a woman to continue doing something that’s uncomfortable for his sexual benefit. Grrrrrr. And one sees this ALL the time- she starts to complain about physical discomfort during sex and he says “just a minute” or tries to dissuade her, or the common and classic “but I like it.” It makes me so f***** angry I could spit.

    Men: you liking it DOES NOT OVER-RIDE HER DISCOMFORT. How you feel about her body, what her body does for you sexually, is NOT MORE IMPORTANT that what SHE feels about it. It is NOT a fair, good, reasonable response to “I don’t like that/please don’t do that/this is uncomfortable.”

    I agree, Heart- it *is* a rapist ethic to respond to your sexual partner’s discomfort/pain with “wait til I get off.” It is them not really caring whether you’re enjoying it. This can go on even in conjunction with lots of checking in, with “how’s this? how’s that?” from the man. I believe this is because this dynamic, this “wait I’m almost done/I’m getting off even tho you’re in pain/discomfort/don’t want to” is so prevalent in society, is the source and subject of jokes *constantly*, that men who are otherwise pro-feminist, who otherwise seem to want real intimacy, can still pull this crap. To get rid of sexism, one must be constantly vigilant. It takes years to rid oneself of these sexist dynamics, and they persist persist persist, perhaps especially during het sex- perhaps during all sex, as sex is so fundamentally conceptualized as f***er and f***ed, as doer and done to, as domination and submission, as entitlement and duty.

    What I mean to say is that it is not just that it is many men’s “entire” view of sex that it is something to “get” from women, but that that dynamic underscores male sexuality in general, even coupled with healthier attitudes. Men can be wanting real intimacy and mutuality and also exhibit behaviours that illustrate a kind of using the woman’s body to get off (which of course indicates they’re not at the real mutuality stage yet). I’m saying this to all those who read and respond with “but that’s not MY entire view of sex! so what she’s saying doesn’t apply to me!” because it does. It still does apply. And it will continue to apply as long as you continue with these behaviours and continue to avoid the implications thereof.

    I’m not sure if I’m being clear. I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m in any kind of disagreement because I’m not.

    and sorry for the long-ass post! lordy

    Posted by Crowfoot | October 20, 2007, 7:06 pm
  7. erg- I didn’t quote the entire bit I intended to:
    The message of MOST pornography is that it is sexy to overcome the resistance of women, that their “no” doesn’t really mean “no,” and that if you just continue to rape the woman, she will eventually say yes.

    the message, in porn, in movies, in comedies:
    just rape her then she’ll like it.

    Kitty: ew. why am I not surprised he’s become a preacher?

    Posted by Crowfoot | October 20, 2007, 7:17 pm
  8. The conflation of sex with power is at the root of it, I think. I find very few people (of any gender or orientation) who is not brainwashed by the idea that power dynamics contribute to desire, that having sex with someone who is not “different” from you in some symbolic way that relates to power is just not good sex.

    When I decided to start from scratch around sex, after coming out as an incest survivor and giving up all kinds of compulsion (and honey, in the 70s and 80s around dykes, it was easy to be compulsive around sex, that whole “anti-sex” myth just didn’t occur in the big urban areas where I lived) — I felt like I had nothing to lose, so I insisted on clear discussions in advance about what we were going to do, details and process up front. I discovered that removing the uncertainty did remove the fear but actually enhanced the charge. I think desire is misunderstood as needing to contain fear. As time went on, things just got hotter. I mean, having the woman I loved tell me what she wanted to do with me, a grin on her face, didn’t actually remove any spontaneity or inventiveness, but it sure made me feel cared for and included.

    Teresa Trull said it with “I want to make love with you / Not to you or At you as men often do.”

    On another note, and maybe this is the wrong crowd to ask, but those Cialis commercials — Is stroking a man’s cheek some kind of secret het signal for “I’m ready to be fucked now?” I mean, every single pair in those commercials does it, the woman stroking the man’s cheek in this stylized way. I have no heterosexual past so I can’t speak to it. The women lovers I’ve had, sometimes we cup each other’s cheek or express affection in various ways, but this doesn’t look familiar to me. Anybody else know what I’m talking about?

    Posted by Maggie Jochild | October 20, 2007, 7:46 pm
  9. Crowfoot: I believe this is because this dynamic, this “wait I’m almost done/I’m getting off even tho you’re in pain/discomfort/don’t want to” is so prevalent in society, is the source and subject of jokes *constantly*, that men who are otherwise pro-feminist, who otherwise seem to want real intimacy, can still pull this crap. To get rid of sexism, one must be constantly vigilant. It takes years to rid oneself of these sexist dynamics, and they persist persist persist, perhaps especially during het sex- perhaps during all sex, as sex is so fundamentally conceptualized as f***er and f***ed, as doer and done to, as domination and submission, as entitlement and duty.

    This is so good, Crowfoot, and SO TRUE. What is key in a man, however committed to feminism/a specific woman/mutuality he is, is the willingness to not only listen to women but to *act on the basis of the information we give to him*, when he knows he *can* act in ways which are self-serving and sexist and get away with it because he knows his partner probably will not leave him because of these “small” betrayals. Which betrayals, if he is dishonest, he can say were just miscommunications or misunderstandings or something like that. A man has to be exactingly and ruthlessly honest with himself to end his own sexism, he has to be willing to forego not only his own pleasures, but all the excuses and reasons he can come up with for why what he did in his own self-interest, which hurt or betrayed his partner, even in ways which don’t seem like such a big deal *to him*, wasn’t really so bad.

    You’re so right that this message of overcoming women’s resistance exists *throughout* mainstream culture. It also exists in the myths and stories we’ve all grown up with, stories like Beauty and the Beast, Phantom of the Opera, King Kong, Princess and the Frog, so, so many in so many cultures.

    ekittyglendower, don’t even get me started about these guys who are rapists pretending to be friends! My worst story along these lines is, I “double dated” once as a young woman with my best friend, her boyfriend and his friend. I did NOT like his friend, he was much older, high, spooky and creepy and I hugged the car door the whole ride up and back to where we were going and stayed far away, didn’t talk to him, and made it very clear I wanted nothing to do with him. That didn’t deter him in the least, on the way home he began talking about where we would go to park! I said probably not, take me home RIGHT NOW, incurring everyone’s irritation including my then-best-friend, who stopped being my best friend around there, after several other similar instances in which she put her boyfriend and her friends not only before me, but before me in ways that endangered me. Just prior to this incident, she had left me sitting out in the car in a dark driveway for *three hours* while she tried to get back with this same horrific, abusive boyfriend. Argh. Anyway, the entitlement to masturbate using our bodies that so many men seem to feel never ceases to amaze me, not to mention the way they encourage one another in it.

    Posted by womensspace | October 20, 2007, 7:56 pm
  10. Not that I know of Maggie. But as we all know, those of us who have lived all those same years and events as everyone else, had sex countless times with innumerable permutations of boring, predictable, bio-ignorant men (what faith in huMANity eh?) birthed children, leaked from every oriface AT ONCE, who have handled countless other’s genitals-clean and dirty, who have not had any of our parts stylized, and which all still function in ways you have only to look forward to as you age; know nothing about sex. Whatsoever.

    Cheek stroking? Frontiers yet to discover.

    Posted by Sis | October 20, 2007, 8:16 pm
  11. Thanks for writing about this, it has been on my mind recently.
    I have looking at how men have treated me in and out of my experiences of childhood abuse and in prostitution, with men in “non-abusive” sex. I have been saddened because I can little different.
    I feel too many men refuse to see the woman. As long as they can penetrate or get their orgasm, that is all that matter.
    When I was abused or during prostitution, I learnt for my own safety to fake a climax, I work out very young that if I pretended I had cum, that the “sex” would maybe stop. I use to try and stop some of the pain, they were putting me through. I learn if I made “sex noises”, the fact that I may look bored or was in pain was not noticed. After all I just holes to be filled. Especially, as a prostitute I was seen as human, therefore my pain was not important.
    I thought that “normal” sex with men would mean that they would see me. They didn’t and wouldn’t. Rather they would want to penetrate me whether I wanted it or not. I found that too many had sex with me, then lose interest,
    To me,it felt like being a prostitution without getting paid.
    I still fake everything.
    Tome, this is rape, for it is treating a woman like a dead body to f-k.

    Posted by Rebecca | October 20, 2007, 8:28 pm
  12. Oh, Rebecca, I want to say I am so so sorry, and I am, I am so so sorry, what’s hideous is, your story is the story of most women, by far, in the world, it’s not only prostituted women, just as you’ve said. So true about the “sex noises,” which are really porn sex noises, make the noises, play the game.

    Maggie, this is so good:

    I discovered that removing the uncertainty did remove the fear but actually enhanced the charge. I think desire is misunderstood as needing to contain fear. As time went on, things just got hotter.

    This is SO TRUE. I completely believe that most women mistake what is largely fear for desire or “chemistry”.

    The following is from the book Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, which I believe should be required reading for the entire human race. It is *not* just about “abusive” men and abusive relationships, it is a manifesto on heterosexual relationships and male heterosupremacy period, it is fine feminist reading, even though it was meant for women in abusive relationships. It is written by Lundy Bancroft who has worked with abusive men for 20 years.

    From Reality #5: He Confuses Love and Abuse

    …is he lying when he says he loves you? No, usually not. Most of my clients do feel a powerful sensation inside that they call love. For many of them it is the only kind of feeling towards a female partner that they have ever had, so they have no way of knowing that it isn’t love. When an abusive man feels the powerful stirring inside that other people call love, he is probably largely feeling:

    * The desire to have you devote your life to keeping him happy with no outside interference;

    * The desire to have sexual access;

    * The desire to impress others by having you be his partner;

    * The desire to possess and control you.

    These desires are important aspects of what romantic love mean to him. He may well be capable of feeling genuine love for you, but first he will have to dramatically reorient his outlook in order to separate abusive and possessive desires from true caring, and become able to really see you.

    The confusion of love with abuse is what allows abusers who kill their partners to make the absurd claim that they were driven by the depth of their loving feelings. The news media…accepts the aggressors’ view of these acts describing them as “crimes of passion.” But what could not more thoroughly prove that a man did not love his partner? If a mother were to kill one of her children, would we ever accept the claim that she did it because she was overwhelmed by how much she cared? …Genuine love means respecting the humanity of the other person, wanting what is best for him or her, and supporting the other person’s self-esteem and independence. …[this] is incompatible with abuse and coercion.

    ****

    I think he’s talking about male heterosupremacy right there, not what are defined as “abusive relationships” only. I think when women perceive that they are the object of those four feelings described up there, they feel a completely appropriate fear which, if they are interested in the man or attracted to him, they interpret as “love”, chemistry, romance. Very creepy.

    Maggie, I think that cheek-caressing thing is yet another way of telling lies about het relationships. It communicates that the woman is really in charge, she’s the one who has the power, she is caressing *his* cheek, with the promise that she might caress more than that, it’s all up to her. The rest of the all-too-familiar story doesn’t get told, that how he interprets her caress will determine what goes down in private, whether he feels entitled to more than a caress, the power struggles which ensue when a man decides a caress is a “yes” without asking, without feeling any need to be very specific, to talk about it, in the way you describe.

    Posted by womensspace | October 20, 2007, 9:35 pm
  13. Heart, you nailed it. Both parts. Wow.

    Thanks so much. I have to, as Alix sang, “think about, I have to think about it, I have to remember….”

    If I blog about this, I’ll credit you, sister. Wow again.

    Posted by Maggie Jochild | October 20, 2007, 9:45 pm
  14. Some time ago Biting Beaver had an excellent post on the issue of consent to sexual activity. Despite claims that women have achieved sexual autonomy with men, women have still not achieved ownership of their bodies. In fact the presumption is women consent to any sexual activity with a man UNLESS they are able to convince him otherwise. Real consent would mean that before any sexual activity takes place both parties would have the responsibility of ensuring the other person is giving informed consent. This does not mean if a woman consents to certain sexual acts she is giving blanket consent to any act the man wants or expects. But, of course the male sexual script for men is they do not have to ask, because they know what a woman wants and it is precisely what he wants. If a woman refuses the male sexual script says, ‘ignore her no just keep pressurising or coercing the woman because eventually she will give in. ‘ That is not consent that is rape.

    Sexual activity is constantly promoted as spontaneous, no need to communicate because supposedly both parties want the same thing and oddly enough it is predominantly what the man wants. Communicating one’s sexual desires to a partner shows respect to that partner and also recognises the other person is a human being not just a masturbatory tool. But we constantly hear the refrain actually communicating and asking a partner what sexual acts they would like to engage in supposedly spoils the spontaneity. But of course that would challenge male power and many men’s belief their sexual desires and entitlement supercede a woman’s.

    We are told that taking a person’s possessions such as a car or money without their consent is a crime because the owner’s consent has not been obtained. However, with regards to women’s sexualities and bodies this belongs to men not women. Another huge problem is the presumption if a woman openly speaks about her sexual desires and wishes to a prospective male partner there is a real risk she will be labelled a slut or whore because she has acted on her desires rather than waiting passively for the man to initiate and hope he will listen to her if he wants her to engage in any act she does not want. Or, hope that he will instinctively know what she likes sexually.

    Lynne Phillips in her book Flirting With Danger expertly shows how the male and female sexual scripts operate and why so many men continue to believe they have not committed rape because they are simply adhering to the male sexual script.

    Posted by jennifer drew | October 20, 2007, 9:52 pm
  15. I just came back to say one more thing, and there’s Jennifer’s post. Again, wow. It is incredibly good to be hearing this level of thinking and clarity.

    What I was going to say is: One of the main mentors in my life, Nancy Kline, long ago defined love as thinking well about the other person. (Which implies listening to them and knowing them.) It’s the definition I’ve used ever since, with revolutionary effect.

    When I read your comment above, Heart, I thought about how pedophiles also claim love for the children they exploit, and I do believe it’s sincere on their part often, not just a line — it is what they know as love. And, tragically, for a lot of children it’s the most consistent and sometimes kind adult attention they are receiving in their lives. Most child molestors persuade and coerce rather than force — it’s about the power dynamic, and persuasion gives them a bigger hit of power because they believe the child is then giving consent. In the male-conditioned version of what consent means.

    What will it look like in a world where all these pathological definitions have been cracked open and drained away?

    Posted by Maggie Jochild | October 20, 2007, 10:25 pm
  16. I wanted to thank you for your reply.
    I think a lot men treat women as part of a porn fantasy made into reality. This is rape, for the women is nothing, just an object to be f-ked.
    When I was a child, part of my abuse was being made to view hard-core porn, including “Hustler” and de Sade. These images and words give me a lesson of how too many see women. We are see nothing something to hurt and f-k.
    Although there can be mutual consensual hetrosexual sex, this does not take away from the pure hate that too men have for women and children.
    I was taught by my stepdad that sex was only real if there is pain. I do not think he is unusual, that is why men like are so destructive.
    When I was a prostitute, some men whilst doing sadistic sex on me, would say –
    “I wouldn’t do this my wife/girlfriend” or
    “My wife/girlfriend can’t handle this”.
    So, it is fine to brutalise and rape a prostitute. After all, they are sub-human.
    What is terrifying is how men think it is ok to fantasise about vicious sex. That they think it alright to rape and brutalise women that they consider to not matter.
    But in some “normal” sex, the porn head is still there. Although these men may not think they are raping or using violence. But, by there total disregard of the women’s emotions and sexual desires, it is rape.
    I think as long as porn control men’s minds, men will not recognise the reality of rape.

    Posted by Rebecca | October 20, 2007, 10:42 pm
  17. Rebecca yes. All women have done that. All. Because of course, there’s little to separate a john from a boyfriend, husband or ‘lover’.

    Heart: You are absolutely right. The caress of the cheek is her way of saying make love to me or tie me up and cut me. It’s all good if it gets you off.

    Yes Jennifer. My printer is rocking.

    Posted by Sis | October 21, 2007, 12:01 am
  18. Heart this is exactly why I don’t want to get married. Because I like to sleep at night, and don’t want to sleep next to a rapist. I don’t want someone to roll on top of me and fuck me while I’m sleeping and call it marriage. Most men are terrible lovers. And most of them are rapists when it comes to sex, but our culture does not allow us to call it what it is when it happens.

    Posted by Kiuku | October 21, 2007, 1:12 am
  19. Kiuku,

    Yes.

    That, in fact, is the original and definitive meaning of sex.

    Mutuality of whatever kind of activity, is, by definition, *not* sex.

    It helps us in our own minds to use the term “their culture” – meaning male culture – rather than “our culture”.

    It never has been our culture. It has, in 99% of recorded history, and never more true than today, been ** male culture ** in which women have been forced to survive and identify.

    One of the reasons why I’m not real, real big on identification with one’s “culture”, rather than with one’s femaleness.

    Mary

    Posted by Mary Sunshine | October 21, 2007, 2:24 pm
  20. Very true Mary Sunshine.

    Posted by Kiuku | October 22, 2007, 12:02 am
  21. Hi Maggie,
    I think the cheek stroke is interpreted by men as foreplay, when in reality she is probably checking to see how bad the stubble is and how much of a hassle it is going to be to get him to scrape it off so he doesn’t shred her flesh.

    Posted by thebewilderness | October 22, 2007, 2:20 am
  22. This just in the bewilderness and Maggie.

    http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/ed_drugs/QA.htm

    Similar warnings went out in 2005 regarding vision changes including blindness, as adverse effects of these drugs.

    So. It seems the reason she is leaning in and stroking his cheek is because he can’t see her or hear her. Stop gasping. Remember our priorities: penetration at any cost.

    Posted by Sis | October 22, 2007, 3:33 pm
  23. Yes, Heart so much of what men have been taught is about the sexual possession of women. Not seeing women as equal human beings. After all, asking a partner demonstrates that the person doing the asking is treating the other person as their equal. A superior never asks an inferior rather they give orders or assume the inferior will do exactly what the superior expects.

    Lundy Bancroft’s book is excellent because he shows how male power operates almost automatically.

    Consent what does that mean. It means a woman consents to whatever the man wants. A more meaningful interpretation would be mutual agreement not consent. Because consent implies one person consents to another’s request. But I see no request in so many rape cases, rather the male rapist claims he believed the woman consented.

    Posted by jennifer drew | October 22, 2007, 11:15 pm
  24. “Yes, Heart so much of what men have been taught is about the sexual possession of women. Not seeing women as equal human beings. After all, asking a partner demonstrates that the person doing the asking is treating the other person as their equal. A superior never asks an inferior rather they give orders or assume the inferior will do exactly what the superior expects. ”

    In addition to that it would make the woman an actual human being. So much of male culture tells us/them that women are not human beings.

    It also amazes me how much men actually believe that porn tells the truth about what -women- want and how women are pleased sexually (as passive recipients of whatever the guy does). A guy once told me that most women had rape fantasies. I contested that and he asked me why all the women in porn like it so much then…wow.

    Posted by Kiuku | October 23, 2007, 9:35 am
  25. It is a male fantasy to believe that women have rape fantasies. Now that I am older and wiser, I am going to reread Margaret Atwood’s short story “Rape Fantasies” and see what comes out of it.

    Posted by ekittyglendower | October 23, 2007, 4:14 pm
  26. Yes I just watched a couple porn documentaries from women in the business. I learned that it can take up to 13 hours to film a scene. They wipe everyone off and redo the scene if the woman did not look happy enough. Sometimes the men do not stop raping the woman when she is in too much pain. (It’s rape. I won’t call it sex). Women have their insides tore out in porn, “regular” porn, often because of the positions and force. “Your insides literally come out of you”, said one woman.

    Posted by Kiuku | October 23, 2007, 7:52 pm
  27. The most important statements I took out of those documentaries though was “If I had other options.” you know “if I could get a normal job with decent prospects”..as a woman this is often not the case. It’s desperation that drives women to porn and not any kind of sexual empowerfulment.

    Posted by Kiuku | October 23, 2007, 7:55 pm
  28. Are those documentaries online and accessible to us? Can you give us enough information to get them from women’s studies program libraries, if possible?

    Posted by Sis | October 23, 2007, 8:29 pm
  29. You can access them here, and also on YouTube:

    http://antipornographyactivist.blogspot.com/

    Posted by Kiuku | October 23, 2007, 11:43 pm
  30. Sorry I asked.

    Posted by Sis | October 24, 2007, 2:09 am
  31. I did not know whether I should write what I about to write.
    But, I feel very hurt by how men interrupt “consent” by judging the woman they are with.
    When I was with men who saw as girlfriend on an equal mutual basis, I felt that I was listen to. I was asked what I wanted. they may hear “no”. This was rare, but it does happen.
    When I was with men who were into porn, I know I was being measured to be f-ked. I as a woman/girl was invisible. For instance, my stepdad who had an obession with hard-core porn, would constantly look up and down my body. My consent was non-existent. My stepdad felt he could touch me any time, any place. He know when he did have sex with me, that the concept of consent would be a nonsense. I was his property, and had no human rights.
    My memories of the images I saw in hard-core porn was that the violence was intense. To me, I do not care whether the women used for porn “consented” or not. For, in much of porn there is torture, rape , mental violence and the underming of everything that makes those women human. Therefore, for the concept of consent is unimportant. Rather, I feel women in porn should be protected for their basis human rights.
    My experiences of prostitution made question the concept of consent, and also experience male hatred in it purer form. I begun prostitution when I was 14. When I begun, I know I was sex object, through my years of abuse by my stepdad and my memories of hard-core porn. Therefore, I had no ability to know that I could say no. Rather, through self-hate and lack of knowledge that there could be an alternative, I entered the world of sadistic prostitution.
    In this world, life became just survival. I learnt how men that hate women see. As a prostitute, I battered, raped and generally as if I a piece of shit. They saw straight through me, seeing as an object to be screwed as vented their hate and anger about women into me. I had no rights. I was not meant to feel pain. Instead, the more they did acts of violence, the more I had to act pleasure. I found that men who hate, are careless whether women they see lived or die, as long as they get what they want.
    I write this because, because I think this view of women who happen to be prostitutes, seeths into how they will treat all women, including the women they consider to be “pure”, and girlfriend material.
    Consent is almost impossible for many women, for men will not understand it on purpose. Consent can be a nonsense, when all a man sees is how he can eventually get his end away. Either through the long-term plan of dating, or the quick fix of getting a prostitute.
    I hope this alright to write. But, I wish there was less violation of basis human rights for women.

    Posted by Rebecca | October 24, 2007, 11:45 am
  32. Rebecca everything you say is alright to write; a lesson for all of us reading. There are many other women who have experienced what yo have, perhaps a majority. What courage you have in naming it and telling it. You speak of your own experience, but you speak for all of those who have experienced what you have but do not recognize it, or yet feel safe to speak about what they know.

    Posted by Sis | October 24, 2007, 2:07 pm
  33. Rebecca I agree with Sis. What you have written is so right and as Sis says, it is what so many women have experienced. I know because I hear women tell me this. But as Sis said, it takes great courage to actually name the never-ending propaganda women receive wherein ‘consent’ is meaningless to women. Because of course, ‘consent’ rests with men – they decide whether or not to listen and respect a woman’s wishes. It has taken me years to realise all the propaganda I received was lies, lies lies. Women do not have the right of ‘consenting’ or rather giving free agreement. A woman’s right to either agree or disagree is non-existent. The notion of ‘consent’ is male-defined and interpreted from the male perspective, which is why ‘non-consent’ becomes ‘consent’ when a woman submits or says nothing. This is never agreement. Of course men know they will not be punished by society or the law if they commit rape in circumstances which are perceived by male interpretation as part of the ‘natural heterosexual male right.’ Coercion, pressure, threats against women to ‘give the man what he wants’ are all rape attitudes not male attempts at seduction.

    Posted by jennifer drew | October 24, 2007, 9:34 pm
  34. Wow Rebecca, I’m really really sorry. You have some really good insights that you’ve shared here. Thank you. Men really hate us.

    Posted by Kiuku | October 25, 2007, 4:39 am
  35. Thanks everyone for your caring replys to my messages.
    Because of my experiences I have to live with the trauma that male violence put into me. I feel less isolated as I read this site.
    I feel that male violence forces their poisonous hate into women and children. Because the majority of men who abuse women and children use mental abuse of making the “victim” feel that she is to blame or that she wanted it – i.e. she consented male violence can become invisible. For the perpetrator will be invisible. And worse, women are transform into whores.
    Because of this injusice many women who have live through male violence are taught to hate themselves. This is safer, than seeing that men choose to be violent or not care about consent, because they know they will get away with it.
    Unfortually, if you do recover enough to not blame yourself, than trauma can hit you very hard. I get terrible body memories of all the tortures I lived. My mind remember the terror, hate, pain and confusion that I had to blanked out when I was in the middle of my hell.
    I have severe PTSD – that the label I get. But, I know that whatever illness or pain I have now, it is because at last I can feel.
    For most of my life I was a robot – not alive, just remembering to breath. Now, I can feel anger at the injustices that women and children are meant to put with. Now, I feel a powerful grief at my story and that there far too many similar tales.
    Oh Sis, I so moved by how you see my writing. Thank-you. I hope that my voice can be part of a large women’s movement that said – We have had enough. We are human. Stop treating us as if we just objects to pour your hate into.

    Posted by Rebecca | October 25, 2007, 2:38 pm
  36. Speaking of all of this, I’ve been working to finish an article for Scarleteen explaining, in as much depth and as persuasively as I can, how NOT to be a rapist.

    The wall I keep hitting? We don’t actually have a word, one simple word, for being a fully and mutually consensual, mutually invested sex partner. Unless I’m just being daft, I really don’t think we have one, which is perhaps unsurprising, but still really unhelpful.

    Anyone have any ideas?

    Posted by Heather | October 25, 2007, 4:37 pm
  37. Tom Leykus, a radio talk show host, tells men to have sex with women any way they can. He encourages men to get women drunk, and he tells men to “pump ’em and dump ’em.”

    It is absolutely outrageous that this man is on the radio, and even more shocking when meek women call in to agree with him. This is a top rated radio show in the Los Angeles market, and it’s also broadcast all over the U.S. and on pod cast I think to the armed forces in Iraq.

    In the U.S. military, women soldiers are subject to “sexual trauma” from their own side. They estimate 28-30% of American women soldiers are raped by male American soldiers.
    This story was on NPR (National Public Radio) recently, and it was the first time I heard about it.

    Consent is a joke to men. They will own and rape women as long as we — half the world’s population, let them get away with it.

    Men are very afraid of women’s brutal anger. I once said that the solution to sexual harrassment in the work place is to have all women become black belts in karate. Or to have combat training for young girls. Once the boys knew that they faced retaliation in kind for any attempted assault, things would change quickly.

    I once yelled really loudly at a man in my company who made a blatant sexist comment during a conference speech. The straight women sat dumbly in their Hyatt Regency conference chairs and did nothing. So I stood up and yelled. Then I went up to that man and confronted him and he backed off in complete fear! I want women to argue and fight back at rotten words said publically against women, and I want this whole nonsense of consent exposed for what it is… male propaganda. No man has dared to make a blatant sexist remark at our conferences again. They are afraid I’ll yell at them and humiliate them in public. Believe me, white upper middle class men fear public confrontations over sexism. They hate political correctness because it really means they can’t say these things about women in public.

    I suppose this could be contrued badly, but I like seeing their cold fear. I like making them back down and feel what a reverse attack against them is like. I wonder what it will take for all the women in these corporate settings to get some courage. It’s time to get radical and confrontational. It’s time to know men will not change and that we are in charge of change in the world. Women will demand our freedom whether men like it or not. They love to get cowardly straight women to do their bidding, they fear a women’s revolution.

    They’re crafty to quote Sonia Johnson.

    Women are often silent and cowed around male groups. They don’t speak up, and they often sit in silence. A lot of women out there don’t even know how to feel anger at all, they are so numbed by patriarchy. Or they ignore men, but never threaten them. If you look at the Female Feminist Pope Facebook site, you’ll see what men openly write there. Too shocking to be believed.

    Geez we can’t threaten these oppressors! Guess white Americans in 1770 shouldn’t threaten British officers should they. I guess black women shouldn’t threaten out and out racists… and on it goes. Oh, by the way, black Americans in those days were offered freedom if they defected to the British side. Henry Washington fled Mount Vernon and fought for the British. Guess freedom has many faces doesn’t it?

    Take a good long listen to Tom Leykus. Record some of his shows, and work to get him off the air. Educate women so they stop calling into these shows. It’s shocking to see the self-hatred in women, and how they think this out and out advocate of rape and sexual conquest of women is their friend and that he’s “telling the real truth.”

    I’ve often mentioned the menace of this man, and no one seems to know what I’m talking about. Men call in and love this show. They love three hours a day of anti-female hate speech. Next time I hear the oppressors whine about how manhating feminists are… It’s a real window into how men think, and they are without shame in their contempt and utter hatred of women on that show.

    Posted by Satsuma | October 26, 2007, 12:41 am
  38. Tom Leykis is a piece of work. I have not listened to him in years, but it sounds like he has not changed a bit. I think he considers himself a liberal, or libertarian, and pro-choice? That just goes to show how sexism runs rampant all the way across the political spectrum.

    I heard Randi Rhodes say today something like what you just said, Satsuma, that women are in charge of change in the world. Ms. Rhodes is not especially radical and sometimes drives me batty, but in my impression, she is becoming radicalized to some extent by the course of events. That could be wishful thinking on my part, but I was surprised to hear her say that.

    Heather, regarding the missing word, the word I like to use is reciprocity. It is far from a simple word or principle, but I think it fits what you are describing.

    Posted by Aletha | October 26, 2007, 4:33 am
  39. Aletha: I like that word, too, and talk about it a lot myself.

    Wonder if there’s a descriptive noun/title I could make with it. “Rapist” is a very powerful word: powerful when we use it to name those who have raped us, but also powerful sounding FOR a rapist, alas. I wish we had a title, a one-word or “reciprocal partner,” that was as powerful and brief.

    Satsuma: have you seen the book “Beauty Bites Beast: Awakening the Warrior Within Women and Girls,” by Ellen B. Snortland? If not, see if you can’t track it down. I haven’t read it all yet, but it’s a pretty awesome piece of work (with a killer title, no less).

    Posted by Heather | October 26, 2007, 5:17 pm
  40. Thanks Heather,

    I’ll order “Beauty Bites Beast” soon.

    Posted by Satsuma | October 26, 2007, 8:08 pm

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