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Pre-2008 Posts

“Real Transbigotry”

Read Real Transbigotry at Pam’s House Blend.  Then read the comments and the links in the comments. 

The real transbigots are not us radical feminists/lesbian separatists this time.  The real transbigots identified in Cathryn’s post are persons born male-bodied, who live as men most or all of the time, but who identify as women and on that basis believe they belong in women’s restrooms, showers, dressing rooms, Michfest, and so on.    Their bigotry is evidenced, according to Cathryn, by their attacks on post-op transwomen’s bodies and lives, because post-op transwomen aren’t buying what they are selling.  And understandably so.  Post-op transwomen have lived as women, sometimes for many decades, and yes indeed, they have gained some insights into the lived realities of womanhood in that process.  As they correctly state, women have reason to be afraid when persons sporting penises, male musculature, and male lived realities, attitudes, posturings, show up while they are dressing, showering, using the commode, and so on stating that in fact they belong because they are women.   Evidently the objections of post-op transwomen are resulting in the kinds of no-holds-barred attacks from non-op transpersons (who never intend to “op” nor even live as women most of the time) with which some of us are all too familiar.  I mean, what’s wrong with you.   Of course someone who lives as a man most of the time but identifies as a woman should freely stroll in wherever women are dressing, peeing, or showering, and if women have a problem with that, they should get over it.  I mean, what’s with all of this victim thinking.  It’s  just a penis, after all, a flap of skin.  Pfft.

It’s interesting– in the comments thread, one commenter writes that she is reading Janice Raymond’s Transsexual Empire and finds it… not really so bad?  She sort of agrees with some of what Raymond is saying, actually.  And what Raymond is saying doesn’t come close, she says, to what these non-op transpersons and their advocates say in terms of sheer hatred and viciousness.

Well, yeah.  As we’ve been saying.

I think what is happening is the logical outworking of the theoretical underpinnings of transgender.    Being a woman, I believe, is about subordination because of our bodies.  There is no more basis for womanhood being about the physical altering of bodies through surgeries or hormones than it is about ideas or thoughts in the mind or past lives or mystical, metaphysical knowings of various kinds.  Post-op transwomen are beginning to see this because — guess what — they have now experienced being subordinated because of their bodies!   These problems with transgender theories have always been apparent, though usually masquerading as class issues, i.e., how is it right to acknowledge the womanhood of someone who could afford surgery and not to acknowledge the womanhood of someone who could not?  The deeper issue is, of course, what connection would  surgical procedures have with womanhood in the first place?  And why?  How so?  Our answer, some of us, is being a woman is not about surgical procedures, ideas or thoughts or beliefs about oneself or “identity”.  Being a woman is about being mistreated by patriarchy because of our female bodies.    That mistreatment — in whatever its form — is what female persons know and share as women.  It’s what those who have not lived as female persons and women do not know and so they dismiss what we, as women, say about our lives, our realities, our fears, what we need.  Sometimes they don’t just dismiss, they steamroll over us, and so far, there has been little we could do about that. 




41 thoughts on ““Real Transbigotry”

  1. Right on, Heart. I’m still shocked that they are so quick to call radfems bigots when I haven’t heard of any radfem that wasn’t appalled by trans-directed hate crimes or believed that they shouldn’t get the surgery they want. I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about the logic of women-only spaces. Then I remembered: they were probably mistreated by bullies and the patriarchal mores of a strange, intolerant society often in life, and so they turn around and beat down on the few people they know they CAN beat on–women, of course. It kind of strikes me that the “transphobia” accusers exploit sexism without recognizing their internalized sexism. I don’t think they feel victimized by radical feminists so much as they are unconsciously punishing women for not playing into our sexist gender role expectations: to act with no needs of our own, and always be unconditionally, maternally, unquestioningly accepting. The trans-individual I knew really well thought that’s what women were like fundamentally. All of them. And that it would be “easier” to be a woman because of that. His (no surgery) sexism was no different than that of any old misogynist, and he sincerely expected all women to be like that.

    It’s good to know that the, dare I say, hysteria surrounding the bigotry accusations are probably dredged up by a few particularly deluded activists and that many others, who by now expect to be hated by everybody based on awful past experiences, just go along with the purveyed info because they expect that sort of reaction from society in general. I’m happy people are giving radfems the benefit of the doubt and thinking critically when they get around to doing their own research.

    “Sometimes they don’t just dismiss, they steamroll over us, and so far, there has been little we could do about that.”

    Something they can only do because it’s directed at feminist women. After living life as a female, one would be aware of how absurdly anti-feminist, anti-woman it is to exploit that power differential that causes women to have no public, interpersonal, private boundaries over her body, her personal space, and how fundamentally violating it is to not have that self-determination. Someone who understood that core reality for females wouldn’t exacerbate the lack of boundaries problem in a brand new way. Why enter a radical feminist space when that is one of the core binding principles that draws women there in the first place, when they clearly don’t even have that knowledge down pat? Maybe some are acutely aware of it though and choose to plow forth anyway, which is even scarier.

    Posted by K.A. | January 27, 2008, 8:23 am
  2. Some highlights from the thread:

    “Observation from a Lesbian Feminist (2.50 / 2)
    I was taking classes at the LA Women’s Building, attending Feminist Conferences, marching for lesbian feminist causes and working as a photographer and production artist for the Lesbian Tide when the Transwars of the late 1970s broke out upon the publication of Janice Raymond’s book.

    Even though I never hid my history those wars never touched me. Perhaps it was because I had been a militant activist since 1965 when I became involved in SDS and had evolved to being a lesbian feminist some years after SRS.

    The anger I have faced from lesbian feminists has always been dissipated by my honesty and willingness to explain. I never experienced the level of vileness and nastiness of abuse from even the most militant separatists as I have faced from the transgender politicos.

    Since my partner and I coined WBT we have been called every abusive term in the book. People have hoped for me to be murdered. We have been told by transgenders that we are really men with inverted penises and that they are more ‘real women” than we are because they dress and act like ladies while we tend to look more like the lesbian feminists we are.

    I am tired of having a bunch of men in dresses exercise their male privilege by defining me. That game is the same game misogynistic men have been running on women forever.
    by: SuzyQ @ Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:46:43 AM CST”

    (emphasis mine)

    I don’t know what WBT stands for though.

    Posted by K.A. | January 27, 2008, 8:52 am
  3. ***I’m still shocked that they are so quick to call radfems bigots when I haven’t heard of any radfem that wasn’t appalled by trans-directed hate crimes or believed that they shouldn’t get the surgery they want.***

    I don’t see why you are shocked. Aggressively convicting women, in this case radical feminists, of men’s crimes is SOP (standard operating procedure) in patriarchy, goes on every day in hundreds of thousands of ways and permutations, has been for thousands of years, and will for thousands more unless we put a stop to it. Patriarchy wouldn’t exist if men didn’t act like that and if there wasn’t always a good supply of women backing them up. It has nothing to do with mistreatment by bullies, it is calculated. Talking here about the TG activists, males who live as men but (say) they “identify” as women and demand inclusion in women’s lockers, showers, bathrooms, etc.

    ***It’s good to know that the, dare I say, hysteria surrounding the bigotry accusations are probably dredged up by a few particularly deluded activists***

    Nothing deluded about them, it is calculated.

    ***I’m happy people are giving radfems the benefit of the doubt and thinking critically when they get around to doing their own research.***

    Yes. That has been a long time coming.

    Posted by Branjor | January 27, 2008, 2:21 pm
  4. Hey, KA, “WBT” is “Women Born Trans.”

    I’m so glad it’s finally becoming very clear who it is who is actually being transphobic!

    Posted by womensspace | January 27, 2008, 4:18 pm
  5. That whole thread over at PHB consists of males scratching out turf over the female body, each laying claim to ownership.

    Posted by Zippy | January 27, 2008, 8:57 pm
  6. Actually, it’s Women Born Transsexual…

    We’re not into the “trans” thing…NO part of it.

    Posted by SA-ET | January 30, 2008, 12:54 am
  7. Zippy – as opposed to the strident claims of ownership here. But that’s different, right?

    I don’t know. I see immense unkindness, an unwillingness to consider others’ positions all around me, no matter what side and what debate I look at. I’m guilty of that too, but at least I’m aware of it, and try to make up for it.

    May I explain? Show you where I’m coming from, and why I believe what I do?

    First, the medical bit. In 1985 I was given some very basic tests at a Fertility clinic, and diagnosed as a mildly Intersexed male. In 2005, as the result of some unusual changes, an expert medical team gave me thousands of dollars of tests, ultrasounds, MRI scans, gene scans… and changed the diagnosis to a terribly, tragically intersexed woman. The medical records showing that when they removed my gallbladder in 1980 they also removed “anomalous structures” that didn’t belong in a male body clinched it.

    Now the socialisation – apart from one brief period where I socialised with other girls at age 8, I had been jammed into a male social niche. It didn’t fit, so I buried myself in my studies, with no socialisation of any kind until I left school.

    I skipped male socialisation into a boy, but had none fitting me for the standard 60’s female template either. One didn’t fit, the other was far too confining. I wanted to be an astronaut, and in 60’s England, that was looked on as ridiculous, perverse even for “good girls”.

    I gained every single advantage of male privilege there is, and I can testify that guys have no idea, none, that they benefit from it. They’re no more aware of it than a fish is aware of water. That’s the biggest difficulty we face, it’s not that all men are pigs, it’s that even the reasonable ones are blind to the Patriarchy. But I digress.

    I’m as spiritual as a brick, a sceptic, and a scientist. My studies of neuroanatomy have convinced me that any reasonable definition of “man” and “woman” must be based on biology as well as social construction. The two sexes tend to think differently, you can see that using dynamic MRI scans. You can also see there’s so much individual variation that any discrimination based on sex is not just wrong, but unscientific.

    Transsexual people born with male-looking bodies appear to be women on MRI scans (and have female-pattern structures in their brains, according to autopsies). Transgendered people don’t, as far as we know.

    As for me – psychologically, I’m exactly the same as those who are TS, indistinguishable from them. My medical femininity makes no difference.

    What’s more, the men with a similar condition to mine who are socialised as female are, well, guys, despite a normal female upbringing and feminine appearance as children. Upbringing appears to play a comparatively small part in formation of gender identity.

    Rather than insisting on my own claim to femininity, I feel I should let others make up their own minds, no matter what my obstetrician and endocrinologist say. I think that if you should grant it for me though, you really have to recognise the femininity of those neurally similar to me as well.

    Posted by Zoe Brain | January 30, 2008, 5:00 am
  8. I am the author of the Real Transbigotry article at PHB, all the comments were removed because I believe they proved every point I had made and the trans administrator there is against my position.

    I posted a new article last night about respecting women’s space that goes completely against the trans dogma.

    Lest anyone think I am intruding here I just wanted to make this one comment and let you know some of us understand the need for safe space even when that does not include us having been denied that ourselves..

    In sisterhood.

    Posted by Cathryn Platine | January 30, 2008, 11:32 am
  9. Should we have this discussion here?

    Should I leave the links in?

    Or are we really so done.

    Thoughts, please.

    Posted by womensspace | January 30, 2008, 4:56 pm
  10. All right, if by 10:42 a.m. PST no one has responded to number 9, I am going to decide that the consensus is, we don’t want to have this discussion here.

    Pam’s House Blend closed down comments and I think made all of the comments invisible, and it’s looking like maybe folks want to move the discussion here. I don’t really want to do that, I don’t think, but want to leave room if some of you have something to say.

    One comment in response to your post, Cathryn. You quote something I wrote a while back in which I said radical feminist critiques of transgender/transsexual politics, ideologies are not meant as criticisms of individuals, and you wonder if that is something like hating the sin and not the sinner.

    Well, even when I was an evangelical, I thought that idea was bullshit, that you can “hate the sin” while “loving the sinner,” mostly because I never saw anybody do it. They hated both the sinner AND the sin but they wanted to find some way around admitting their hatred.

    But this isn’t about sins and sinners.

    I think revolutionary feminist politics has to do with critique and analysis of everything which concerns us, even, of course, or possibly especially, what we are doing ourselves, or have done. Even what we are involved in ourselves. What we are going to keep on doing, as well. What we did to ourselves and can’t undo, for whatever reason.

    That’s not hating the sin and loving the sinner. That’s caring enough about the liberation of women that we look closely at every last deal we have felt we had to cut, as women, to survive. And looking at *why* we believed we had to cut those deals, and why, actually, we *did* have to cut them.

    We might have to continue on in the deals we’ve cut, no question. We might want to continue on in them. Nobody expects someone who got a boob job to get her implants removed. Nobody expects someone who dieted down to a mere shadow of her former self to regain the weight. Nobody expects someone who is happily married to ditch her husband. That’s not the point. The point is to make feminist knowledge of the deals we all felt we had to cut to get by, and to move on from there.

    But really, that’s all I’ve got to say.

    Posted by womensspace | January 30, 2008, 5:50 pm
  11. Let me amend: there probably are some ideologues out there who think women should be martyrs to the feminist cause, scrupulously working on uncutting every last deal they’ve cut. I don’t agree with them. I’m just adding this because I said “no one expects,” and I’ve been around long enough to know that in all likelihood, somebody does!

    Posted by womensspace | January 30, 2008, 6:15 pm
  12. Go to any gay and lesbian center in a major American city, and you will see men in women’s restrooms. It’s creepy and awful.

    Michfest, — do we have any really tough lesbian guards who can go to the restrooms, grab the tresspassing pre-op MEN and throw them out bodily?

    Geez, yes, defend women’s space, throw the bums out? We don’t have to care about any stupid sexist trans activists telling radical feminists what to do ever.

    Women have got to be direct, to be decisive, and to be willing to defend their spaces.

    I have no problem with transgender rights, but I do think men walking around with penises in women’s spaces are a menace to society. It’s about male invasion and violation of women. It’s their delight in a kind of psychic rape, and I think it’s a good way for men to sleaze into our spaces.

    Fortunately, I haven’t seen many transgenders get away with much in lesbian spaces, but I have personally witnessed their pornographic minds at work when they do come to lesbian rap or chat groups. You wouldn’t believe the things I’ve heard even post-op transgender people say in a lesbian group! They bring their male pornographic self right into the room, and have no clue that women don’t do this.

    It’s a real problem. So I say, just be tough. Throw them out, and I’ve done this. I’ve told the pornographic peeping tomasinas to leave rooms. I’ve called guards to have them removed. It works. You also have to deal with the dim wits who want to argue for these people’s “rights’ to say this garbage and bring this sexual stuff into lesbian spaces.

    So right on Heart! Just tell it on the mountain as they say.

    P.S. Love the sinner hate the sin — glad you pointed out this fundamentalist idiocy! They hate the sinner, no question about it!

    Posted by Satsuma | January 30, 2008, 9:51 pm
  13. Actually there are a few new MRI studies that show people from different cultures think differently, too. Just thought I’d throw that out there.

    Posted by kiuku | January 30, 2008, 10:04 pm
  14. Pam’s Blend had a really great article from a male to female transwoman, who really had some great insights into all this new stuff.

    One of the weird things about radical politics and radicals, is they always want to wipe out the past. Non-ops getting on post-op females from a long time ago, for example.

    Then we have post-modern radical feminists who think the second wave women were sell outs, or have no intention of even gaining some historical perspective.

    It’s a real problem of cross-generational communication.

    I got an email recently about a lesbian conference in Los Angeles that was for lesbians age 60 and older. At first I was sad about this, but then I remembered how the young women really trashed older women volunteers at the local gay and lesbian center, causing many good lesbian volunteers to quit because of the abuse and lack of respect—long story won’t bore you all.

    So now we find out that generations of transgender people are dealing with this as well. Is it a pattern? And how do we handle this?

    Posted by Satsuma | January 30, 2008, 10:12 pm
  15. Here are some paragraphs from someone who claims to be a transperson and a “trans rights” activist. The person receives a monthly stipend from an “GLBT(continue letters here)” organization which, the person complains, is so low, they have to buy their “medications” from Wal-Mart and nobody should criticize that decision.

    I mean, jeezus. If you want me to buy my medications elsewhere, pay me more money to do my activism! What?! You’re an activist who has never earned a single penny doing your activist work? It’s all been volunteer, a second or third job you’ve done while holding down regular day jobs to pay the bills? Well, break out the world’s tiniest violins, that’s not my problem! I am an ACTIVIST. I don’t have any TIME to take a regular job!

    If you go to this person’s blog, here is a typical entry:

    I don’t really like it.

    They ask my name. I shorten it, telling them it’s “Kerri/Carey”, figuring that’s neutral enough that it won’t disrupt whatever assumptions they have about my gender, hopefully keeping me safe. I suppose it should be flattering that they all assume I’m female.

    Sometimes it comes unbidden. I’m walking out of the downtown campus when a man nearby says something. I stop to hear it. I wish I hadn’t. He follows as I try to walk away, follows for two blocks, telling me how “fine” my “big ol’ ass” is, telling me exactly what he wants to do to it. Or I’m in a bar, heading for the ladies room, when a man stands up and tries to follow me, taking the fact that I’m alone as an invitation to try and get into the stall.

    Sometimes I feel like I’m asking for it. I tell the man on the bus he can sit next to me. He takes the opportunity to ask me if he can get some action. He tells me it’s obvious I already like him. He tries to get off at my stop, but the driver doesn’t let him. Or I’m waiting for the bus, and I help a man out who’s asking for fare. It suddenly becomes his business what bus I’m taking, where I live, how many men have had me, how many black men have had me. He tells me how “thick” I am.

    (name omitted) tells me to “stop being so nice,” but I don’t want to be that person, who ignores the other persons around them. And even if I was, their interest rarely seems to predicate upon mine. I can’t stop it from happening.

    And I don’t know what to do once it happens. I freeze up. I try to ignore it. I walk away, though there’s only so far one can walk when waiting for a bus, and even less one can walk when already on the bus. I say, “I’m busy,” I say, “Not now,” I say, “I’m not having this conversation with you.” I say, “NO.”

    None of it works.

    Welcome to womanhood.

    What great activism. I’m sure this person is accomplishing really amazing things for female persons.

    I’m going to post this, then edit and using my amazing mod powers, hopefully include this person’s avatar.

    This is the kind of thing we are expected to support. This is the kind of thing we get trashed for critiquing. This is the kind of thing that is *everywhere* under the aegis of “GLBT activism! The above, racist, misogynist claptrap is activism being *paid for* by some GLBT group somewhere.

    This person’s avatar (images don’t work in comments):

    Posted by womensspace | January 31, 2008, 7:40 pm
  16. Argh, I’m all fired up about that post.

    I tell the man on the bus he can sit next to me. He takes the opportunity to ask me if he can get some action. He tells me it’s obvious I already like him.

    This is SO exhibit A.

    Which of us would EVER tell some random man on a bus he can sit next to us! And why don’t we? Because he may well sexually harrass or assault us. As Satsuma says Mexico City joins a growing list of cities worldwide which have woman-only coaches, and why? Because women do not want to be accosted, assaulted, raped, riding the bus! We are not “flattered” that some perv thinks we are female. We do not write blog posts like this pornographically detailing our experiences of sexual harassment.

    Posted by womensspace | January 31, 2008, 7:49 pm
  17. Argh…. I get the (avatar) picture! This is the kind of trashy nonsense I was talking about in other posts here. I see all of women’s space as under some creepy patriarchal assault now.
    Even rest rooms with pre-op men hogging the mirrors to put on make-up. It is in your face, creepy and pornographic.

    Never in my life have I heard the kind of porno mouth talk coming out of women’s mouths that I’ve heard come out of trasngender lesbian mouths! It’s very weird that we aren’t dealing with sexism and womanhatred in LGBT spaces.

    I think Janice Raymond was warning about this years ago, but I bet even she didn’t imagine this creepy state of affairs.

    A lot of women don’t know about this stuff, because I see it largely at big lesbian events and at LGBT centers. The Mich fest women keep reporting on this too, and it’s been going on for over a decade.

    Mary Daly said it well — she invoked the old Irish tradition of standing one’s ground. And that’s what we have to do women.

    Inviting men to sit next to me on a bus!! Never. Getting up to let an elderly person sit down (male or female) yes.

    Aargh arrah and triple aargh 🙂 Love that pirate english 🙂

    Posted by Satsuma | January 31, 2008, 8:20 pm
  18. P.S. Activism is not about a paycheck! Geez! It is what we do to achieve freedom. And we do get paid back when laws change and when the situation of women gets better worldwide. We get paid in the gold of friendship, in the diamonds of freedom and in the rubies of satisfaction. A true sign of transwoman still being men is expecting a salary for freedom fighting! Now that’s a male mind forever in an operated female body if there ever was one!

    Posted by Satsuma | January 31, 2008, 8:24 pm
  19. P.S.S. I think this is a fine and dandy conversation Heart, but you’re the boss apple sauce. 🙂 re love potion # 9 — I know post # 9 couldn’t resist that! 🙂

    Posted by Satsuma | January 31, 2008, 8:30 pm
  20. Even rest rooms with pre-op men hogging the mirrors to put on make-up.

    So true!

    One thing I did not write about the Hullaballoo (but am going to include it in my first issue of Women’s Space Underground coming to your mailboxes if you signed up) is, there were two transwomen attending. One of them simply was male, presented as male, that was that (though this person used the women’s restroom which was quite jarring to say the least). The other did not fit in at all amongst the sea of muscle-shirted, tie-dye-t-shirt-clad crones with spikey white hair and tattoos, with a few freeze dried hippies sprinkled in, and this was because she wearing all sorts of glitter and pink, a lot of makeup, a hairdo from Gene Juarez or something similar, and she spent tons of time in and out of the restroom refreshing the lipstick and glitter. I am not exaggerating. This person continually had her compact open doing the cheeks or the lashes or the lips throughout the entire day I saw her there, completely oblivious to the contrast this was to the behaviors of others attending.

    You know, I don’t care about that so far as personally, whatever floats someone’s boat, if you need to style, well, style, whatever. But if you bring that stuff around feminists, and if you call yourself a feminist or lesbian or GLBT or whatever activist, and especially if you attack the Second Wave or feminist leaders or display abject ignorance of feminism and women’s history, such that we can see you mean us no good, why would we tiptoe around your delicate feelings so far as critiques of your patriarchal beauty (and other) practices. We are *against* sadomasochism, you know?!

    Posted by womensspace | January 31, 2008, 8:44 pm
  21. Yes, this Hullaballo incident is odd, but I’ve also personally seen this sort of thing happen at lesbian events too. Just socially inappropriate stuff — putting on make-up at a check in table, while women are trying to sign up and get conference material is definitely not professional. I saw this out of it behavior as a sign of veiled hostility and disrespect to all the women coming in the front door for the event.

    However, on the other side, I saw lesbian identified post-op transwomen at feminist discussions who really got it. They didn’t dominate or over talk, they actually listened a lot, and I felt they had a genuine interest in lesbian political herstory.
    They made a good faith effort and I respect that. Kind of like women of color events I’ve been to where I am quiet and listen! Yes, listen!

    You can always attack the past, but how do you behave in the present? I think human beings who were born as men have a very hard time getting what women are all about. I see men completely clueless in their porno talk. I’ve seen gay men porno talk in front of lesbians seemingly completely clueless that this male “sexual banter” which they can’t seem to shut up about offends all the women in the room. We had to practially stomp on them to get them to quit. We had to say, “Stop your sex talk now or we’re going to dump this hot pot of coffee on your head.” Only that got them to stop after several warnings!

    Men barge into women’s spaces, take up time, dominate, control and do obviously offensive things all the time. The trans-movement does this to women all the time, and they should be called on their incredible social rudeness. Because that is what it is! It is also about male colonization, and women are not about that. So if you can’t stop your colonizing behaviors, then we really have to wonder what these people are at these events for Heart. It’s weird, it’s creepy, and lesbians and straight feminists need to throw them out. Why we don’t do this is beyond me.

    Women have got to be direct about women’s spaces and not be afraid to be thought “intolerant” for throwing men and pre-tend women out! Throw them out!

    We can create spaces where trans-women and feminists can come together, but not at the pathetically few radical feminist events still going on in America. Geez, we have so little and even this crumb they trample on! No male ethic group would ever put up with this sort of violation. You can just bet transwomen would not waltz into a Mosque, for example.

    Posted by Satsuma | January 31, 2008, 9:47 pm
  22. I’m glad other people are being honest about the creepy misogyny they’ve experienced from trans individuals, because my experiences with an endless stream of vile misogyny from people of every gender, orientation, ethnicity, “identity,” and what have you cannot top the taker of them all, who was trans. I still think some of the problem with this tension between the two groups is not recognizing that transness probably comes about in different ways, and we don’t look at the different pathways that gives rise to their self-conception. The GrandMaster Miss Misogynist that I knew, in my opinion, had a sexual fetish that involved him being sexually aroused by the thought of him being a woman. In his mind, “woman” meant exactly what misogynist men think women are, making the fetish all the more despicable to be around (this was my BOSS, who didn’t have a good concept of boundaries). Additionally, there are people on the OCD spectrum (interestingly, fetishes are also on the OCD spectrum) who are fixated with limb amputations, and perhaps some men actually have a version of this directed at their male parts. However, I think many other trans individuals probably don’t have the amputee fixation OR the sexual fetish, and it’s probably hard for them to understand how damaging it is for women who’ve had experiences with the autogynephiles that makes us need safe space sometimes, even if their own “pathway” to transness is wholly different.

    Posted by K.A. | February 2, 2008, 1:25 am
  23. ***there were two transwomen attending. One of them simply was male, presented as male, that was that (though this person used the women’s restroom which was quite jarring to say the least).***

    All those women there and nobody apparently felt able to just refund the creep’s money and throw him out. This reminds me of an incident I read about in Mary Daly’s book Outercourse, but with quite a different outcome. It was back in the 70s. There was a women-only martial arts demonstration at Boston College. A male invaded it declaring that it was his building in his school and they couldn’t keep him out. Two strong women simply picked him up bodily and deposited him outside the door and that was that. After this incident (and this is the important part) the “gynergy in the room soared.” Well, it seems like there’s no more soaring gynergy these days, just endless wimpiness. Maybe that generation of radical feminists is just too old physically now to do stuff like that and the new generation just is not together enough to do it. Anyway, women will get their soaring gynergy back when they get their nerve back.

    ***The other did not fit in at all amongst the sea of muscle-shirted, tie-dye-t-shirt-clad crones with spikey white hair and tattoos, with a few freeze dried hippies sprinkled in, and this was because she wearing all sorts of glitter and pink, a lot of makeup, a hairdo from Gene Juarez or something similar, and she spent tons of time in and out of the restroom refreshing the lipstick and glitter. I am not exaggerating. This person continually had her compact open doing the cheeks or the lashes or the lips throughout the entire day I saw her there***

    Sounds like this one was more interested in his makeup than in the radical feminist program and speakers he was ostensibly there to listen to. His behavior conveys worlds of disrespect. He could also have used some throwing out.

    Posted by Branjor | February 2, 2008, 2:01 pm
  24. Aggressively convicting women, in this case radical feminists, of men’s crimes is SOP (standard operating procedure) in patriarchy, goes on every day in hundreds of thousands of ways and permutations, has been for thousands of years, and will for thousands more unless we put a stop to it. Patriarchy wouldn’t exist if men didn’t act like that and if there wasn’t always a good supply of women backing them up.

    So true, and perfectly said.

    It has nothing to do with mistreatment by bullies, it is calculated.

    I think it’s calculated by the delusional misogynist trans activists, but I’m willing to bet a whole boatload of other trans followers would be perfectly respectful of radical feminist women if they weren’t being purposely misled by more vocal trans people. Now they can research individually and say, WTF? You lied about their beliefs, nutjob! I guess middlemen and lacking original sources is the cause of a lot of needless conflict. My hope is that one day I can call a misogynist of any presentation a misogynist without being called a bigot….

    Posted by K.A. | February 2, 2008, 4:38 pm
  25. Argh…. I get the (avatar) picture! This is the kind of trashy nonsense I was talking about in other posts here.

    Every trans person I have ever come into contact with has been into hentai–for those who blessedly don’t know what that is, it’s Japanese anime porn. It’s by far and away the most misogynistic thing in existence that doesn’t require the exploitation of live female bodies. Of course this is anecdotal and we can’t generalize from my history, but the association in my experience has been too glaringly obvious and sick to ignore. Every single time I’ve encountered a MTF trans individual, there is also that fetishization of misogynist representations of women. Invariably. I can’t ignore this. Men don’t get a pass for it, why should trans just because they are “giving up male privilege?” I don’t care where you are on the hierarchy, I’m not lying about my reality for your comfort!

    Again, I don’t think the pathway to transness is the same for everyone, but I see the sexual fetishization of graphic depictions of female-qua-subordinate-cunt as a primary cause for at least a portion. I still want to be clear that I don’t think all MTF trans identities are, in actuality, a fetish in disguise. But how are we supposed to know who is all about what? I’m not going to deny my experiences with any group and defer to someone born a man because their lives are hard too. They expect women to defer to them though, because that’s what they’ve experienced all their lives as men without even knowing it. In spite of benefiting from the deference, there is still an idealization of the female “role” as being easier (!!) and more inherently suited to their brains. I’m still offended by the claims that they are female-brained and “didn’t learn to think like women until they stopped trying to learn how to think like women.” LEARNING TO THINK LIKE A WOMAN? WHAT does THAT mean?! Yeah, there is nothing misogynist about the process at all. I’m not a fucking illogical hip-swish in a wiggle dress, which is still the idea many MTF have, even the ones criticizing trans activists!

    Posted by K.A. | February 2, 2008, 5:04 pm
  26. I’ve read this thread over several times at this point, first because I think the observations in it about perpetual male invasion of women’s spaces are very accurate and we need to see this “transbigotry” trend as part of it, and, second, because like a lot of the manifestations of male sexuality I find this aspect of MTF transsexuality confusing.

    I’m in my mid-fifties, and until about 20 years ago my comfortable, uncomplicated idea of a MTF transsexual was Christine Jorgensen. I read her book and had sympathy for her situation: her photos showed her as a very feminine looking young man who later presented post-op as a conventual-looking woman of her time. Her professed goal was to match up her outer form with her inner self and eventually date men. For years that was how I understood MTF transsexuality: feminine men undergoing horrific surgery to pass as women and find male partners. The movie “Trans America” is very much in this vein and thus understandable to a wide audience.

    Then I actually had to have contact for a couple of years with a MTF transsexual in the 80’s, and my paradigm was rocked. This individual’s face, voice, and body matched up with her former professions of career army-man and then state trooper. She was very agressive, talked endlessly about herself and her past, but, not knowing I was very aware she had lived as a man for 40-something years before her surgery, occasionally would act coy, flute her voice upwards, and refer to her former pregnancies and her current periods! (I found out she did indeed have several children, which she had FATHERED, not birthed!). I would try not to sigh incredulously, because I thought about the surgeries she had gone through with the outcome of not passing at all!

    At some point I noticed she was standing much closer to me than I was comfortable with any acquaintance doing, and after scuttling backwards numerous times I told her I was uncomfortable with anyone getting in my personal space to that extent. This declaration didn’t help much. Afterwards she would profess interest in my work on my PC and crowd in behind me, pressing her breasts against my back. When I immediately tensed up, she would start a neck rub on me to ease my obvious stiffness and seem hurt when I would tell her to please stop.

    Yes, d’oh! She was something I didn’t suspect at all–a MTF transsexual lesbian! All the young folks know about this now; I hadn’t a clue until she finally just told me and pitched her woo explicitly. In my refusal I spared her feelings as best I could (I have to say she was a very genial person and didn’t take it badly), but I was inwardly bewildered at why a man who sexually desired women only and had relationships with them as a man would then have sexual reassignment surgery and still pursue them. A gay male colleague commented after her coming out as a lesbian, “That’s going to a lot of trouble to be a homosexual!”

    K.A.’s comments about some MTF transsexuality being a manifestation of a sexual fetish makes a lot of sense to me in this context: “The GrandMaster Miss Misogynist that I knew, in my opinion, had a sexual fetish that involved him being sexually aroused by the thought of him being a woman. In his mind, ‘woman meant exactly what misogynist men think women are, making the fetish all the more despicable to be around. . . .” And it makes all the sense in the world in respect to pre-op, perhaps NEVER-op, MTF’s feeling free to storm women’s only spaces, restrooms, etc. This is the same old sexual abuse and colonization in a trendy “activist” new wrapper. If they can still get their thrills and not have to pay in any sense for surgeries, such men will probably never take the social step down of sexual re-assignment to female. This is probably going to become a prominent part of the “Q” in LGBTQ and will thus legitimize in a lot of activists’ eyes whittling away what little fresh air women-born-women have to themselves. Wait, it already HAS, hasn’t it?

    I am about as thrilled with “trash talk,” Hentai, and all such as Satsuma et al., and I can’t truly relax except when I’m in woman-only space. Except for being online here and on a couple of other blogs, it looks like my options for such space will be limited to time I spend alone. (Picture a very sad emoticon here. . .)

    Posted by Level Best | February 4, 2008, 3:28 pm
  27. K.A.: I’m not a fucking illogical hip-swish in a wiggle dress

    HA! Bitter ha. That should be on a bumper sticker somewhere.

    Heart, reading

    Posted by womensspace | February 4, 2008, 6:46 pm
  28. Level Best: but I was inwardly bewildered at why a man who sexually desired women only and had relationships with them as a man would then have sexual reassignment surgery and still pursue them.

    Yes, I have encountered many such transwomen. By far most of the transwomen I have encountered identify as lesbians, whether they are no-ops, post ops, whatever. Hence, the many conflicts around woman-only spaces created by lesbians.

    I have, however, encountered a couple of situations where a transwoman was heterosexual before transitioning, but after transitioning the person no longer was attracted to women and now identified as a heterosexual woman.

    Well, we’re not supposed to talk about the harm that has come to us at the hands of transwomen. That thundering noise you hear in the background is the misogynist, sexist gnashing of teeth that occurs any time female persons honestly talk about that. Stay tuned, the choruses of “bigots!” will soon follow.

    What you describe having happened to you, Level Best, is in my experience typical. Though your coworker transitioned, she continued on in some very male attitudes, the violation of personal space, the inappropriate coming on to you. It’s like what I posted up there, the transwoman describing what any of us would view as being sexually assaulted and harassed in an almost-pornographic way that is foreign to us as female persons. This is something it is horrendously difficult to talk about publicly and impossible to talk about in the presence of many (not all) transpersons without being attacked for it. The truth simply is that someone who has lived as a boy/man for many years and who has been heterosexual and partnered with women has a certain lived reality that is foreign to our realities as female persons. Transitioning doesn’t change that. It is evidenced in many, many ways, most of which are subtle and even hard to describe, but as women, we all know what you’re talking about Level Best.

    Posted by womensspace | February 4, 2008, 7:01 pm
  29. I have sat here and read through all these comments and have been stunned by the total lack of understanding of trans* people that most posters here have, not least of which is the author of this article.

    As a pre-op transsexual (due for SRS Jan/Feb 2009) I don’t like hentai or pornography and am disgusted when GG lesbians shoot off foul mouths about sex just as much as I am disgusted at men that do the same. I am the parent of two wonderful daughters that I have brought up to believe that ALL people are equal (women AND men) and deserve understanding, to give respect freely and demand respect exactly none of the time because respect should be given to you as a precious gift.

    I am saddened to find that there is another sub section of society that feel my values and life experiences mean nothing.

    Posted by Cathii Scott | February 5, 2008, 5:49 am
  30. Bitter ha. That should be on a bumper sticker somewhere.

    It’s funny you should say that. Today I saw one of those “Guns don’t kill people. People kill people” messages and I thought, my god, I should make a bumper sticker that says “Guns don’t kill people. Men kill people” cuz 4 srsly, guns don’t kill people–men do. Men kill everythiiing.

    I’m sorry about your experience Level Best. I had to go through something similar, if it makes you feel any better (hmm, I guess it doesn’t help much!). I don’t know how you even managed to type out the details of the experience, but thanks for sharing.

    I don’t understand why it’s taboo to criticize elements of interaction between MTF and feminist women just because transfolk aren’t sitting on the throne of the Western hierarchy. I mean, every other group as a class can be criticized without it necessarily making us bigots or directly attacking anyone personally: gay men can bear a distinct breed of misogyny that’s worth analyzing separately from that of white men; the misogyny in gangsta rap has morphed into a stereotype that distinguishes it from the misogyny of white country crooning dudes. All faces of misogyny are worth picking up and criticizing in any context once its shockwaves begin to be felt by women, and deconstructing any of them doesn’t automatically mean you’re a homophobe/racist/transphobe. But only the last of the three seems to hold any water, usually because the MTFs who make all the noise and ruckus lived life as–you guessed it–financially comfortable corporate white men with (ex) het marriages and the fam full of kids. Oh, I guess now I realize why it’s the one group expecting protection from criticism! I guess the ones that have it in for radfem lesbian separatists really are the ones who inherited the throne of Western civilization after all. They ooze privilege, even if they’re nervous about giving it up. It shaped them permanently.

    By far most of the transwomen I have encountered identify as lesbians, whether they are no-ops . . .

    Same as the boss I was describing above. I would have never guessed it, but most seem to identify as lesbians in my experience. And porn. They seem to identify with porn a great deal…to the culminating point of wanting to become porn. And how do you become porn? By becoming a woman, of course. Again, I don’t think that’s the pathway for all MTFs obviously, but it’s common enough that it’s ridiculous that women-only safe-space setups are even an issue. How are we supposed to tell?!

    Posted by K.A. | February 5, 2008, 6:02 am
  31. Cathii Scott, as the saying goes, if it doesn’t apply to you, then don’t worry about it, it isn’t about you. Everyone who has commented here has qualified what she has said. Nobody is making all-inclusive, blanket statements.

    We have to have one place on the internet where female persons may share experiences and try to make sense of them without being made to be wrong, insulted, silenced, shouted down, clobbered, lied about, harassed, stalked, baited, intimidated, called names, etc., because we took issue with someone’s politics or agenda or ideas or theories. You haven’t done any of the above; I am not talking about you.

    You sound like a good person. I wish you the best, and I mean that sincerely.


    Posted by womensspace | February 5, 2008, 6:04 am
  32. I am saddened to find that there is another sub section of society that feel my values and life experiences mean nothing.

    I took care to explain in multiple instances, if you care to read, that I of course don’t think all trans people are like that! In fact, I mentioned that the misogynist MTFs are spreading misinformation, who are a minority, and everyone else probably go along with it because they indeed expect yet another sub section of society to hate them.

    But transfolk don’t seem to give a shit that a distinct brand of transmisogyny directed my way HAS been a part of my many, many, many degrading experiences in life as a woman, and I rightfully need safe space sometimes. So let me add, that I am saddened to find that there is another subsection of society that feel my life experiences mean nothing.

    Posted by K.A. | February 5, 2008, 6:17 am
  33. Cathii,

    What Heart said. There are so many MTFs who I would love to meet and party with at some radfem event. Your transness is totally different from the ones who fetishize gender! How can we know? Well, no one applies to get in, so, ya know. But the whole idea is to have places where women are finally allowed to draw boundaries for personal space, finally guaranteed safety from anyone who has created any kind of misogynist hell for women. You are not one of them, thankfully.

    There are MTFs who I think understand radical feminism and my beliefs better than some naturally female radical feminists. I was just checking out on Amazon a book about gender called As Nature Made him (about the John Money twin experiment), where the ONE person out of 160 glowing book reviews who called bullshit on the famous gender essentialist propaganda piece was MTF-trans! Unfortunately, many other MTFs are the ones pushing the very opposite agenda to the detriment of women, particularly radical feminist women’s contentions.

    Posted by K.A. | February 5, 2008, 6:37 am
  34. Once again, biological fatherhood is the best (and pretty much only) way to support feminists and lobby for change. Thanks for that encouraging message, Cathii.

    Posted by Rich | February 5, 2008, 6:52 am
  35. But transfolk don’t seem to give a shit that a distinct brand of transmisogyny directed my way HAS been a part of my many, many, many degrading experiences in life as a woman, and I rightfully need safe space sometimes


    Rich, could you fill that out a bit more? :p

    Posted by womensspace | February 5, 2008, 7:04 am
  36. Dang, K.A. That is SUCH a significant statement you made there! A distinct brand of transmisogyny directed my way has been a part of my many many degrading experiences in life as a woman.



    And I am going to talk about that, unapologetically.

    Posted by womensspace | February 5, 2008, 7:06 am
  37. Everything anyone says can piss someone off. In the course of expressing Righteous Outrage [tm], Cathii said something that showed a complete lack of understanding of my point of view (namely, that it’s literally patriarchs, fathers, males who typically pressure women to have unprotected sex, who seem to be given the most credit for “deconstructing gender” these days) , a point of view which Cathii didn’t consider or even imagine the existence of.

    It’s silly for Cathii to whine about people not caring about Cathii’s snowflake-like life experiences when Cathii is equally oblivious to other subsections of society.

    It’s like, congrats for ejaculating, I’m proud of you.

    What kind of tool brags about being nice to his kids? — you’re supposed to like your kids, they’re yours, they’re your “immortality,” so says the male ego. Even Dick Cheney more or less loves his lesbian daughter. If he can do it, it can’t be THAT hard.

    Fathers [in their dual role as mates] are the one type of male that some women, psychologically, “need” to be feminist or considered feminist.

    Cathii was shamelessly pandering to that, taking advantage of how poorly many males treat their offspring despite (and because of) all that patriarchal immortality mythology. It’s like bragging that you haven’t raped anyone. “uh, good job there, buddy.”

    Posted by Rich | February 5, 2008, 7:33 am
  38. And I am going to talk about that, unapologetically.

    Me too. They rely on women’s self-censoring and fear of stepping on toes and perpetual feeling of collapsing in on herself when in public forums. Some aren’t aware of that reality because, ahem, THEY HAVEN’T LIVED LIFE AS A WOMAN, but the vocal misogynist trans activists know it perfectly well and exploit it to their advantage.

    Posted by K.A. | February 6, 2008, 8:40 pm
  39. All of the posts on this topic are just excellent! This type of analysis has really made me think, and I can recall the first time I ever heard of Janice Raymond’s late 70s? book “The Transsexual Empire.” I never read the book, but when some of my friends were discussing it, I found it a very odd topic.

    Now, of course, both Mary Daly and Janice Raymond had more foresight than a lot of women out there.

    I think as radical feminists we should at least have the courage of our convictions about the sanctity of women’s space. We should lay down very clear ground rules in advance.

    For example, Heart told us that there was no advanced written policy excluding transgender people at feminist Hullaballo, but I believe these policies should really be in place, because men simply walk in the door “saying” they are women.

    Do we really want to have a space where all women will finally be able to discuss radical feminist politics with NO men butting in, or acting up, or deliberately causing trouble? Can we have some unity on this please??

    Then we need to have a security policy at Michigan — guards will remove these transactivists, because they are actually meaning women harm. We should get that people who grew up as men have no clue as to what either feminism or women’s lived experience is all about.

    One of the things men do is attempt to invade or control women. Political women are even more of a threat to patriarchy, and after 30 years, our activism and politics are growing ever more sophisticated.

    I don’t think MTFs really know what this is all about, because they are tying into sterotypical images of women, not who women actually are.

    So I think it is up to us to respect our own spaces as women, to say it without apology. Then we challenge the trans activists to create joint spaces where SERIOUS discussion can occur. They have to prove they know how to behave — no dominating behaviors, no name calling, no belittling of feminism. Then I’ll believe them a little more.

    Sad truth here, when I mentioned banning pre-op MTFs from Michigan — I was being generous here — other blogs lit up like fire. Young lesbians attacked me right and left. They will bring in the Trojan Horse of male tyranny, and they won’t even know it. Yes, the Trojan Horse!

    Already I’m reading articles about lesbians dating these MTFs, and then bringing them to women’s spaces. They’ll do this and have absolutely no respect for the lesbian and straight radical feminist activists who have clear political reasons for wanting women to be free of male anything — at a conference, at Michfest or at the very few spaces available for serious radical feminist discussion and work.

    Even the American Academy of Religion, which has a huge gay and lesbian caucus group has separate panel discussions. Lesbians and gay men do not share a panel. Lesbian religious activists know that if they don’t have the stage all to themselves, gay men will blab away about truly offensive things. They can’t help their porno mouths.

    Now if AAR gets this vis-a-vis lesbians and gay men, why can’t radical feminists get this re women born women? What holds us back from putting our collective feet down on this and being REAL CLEAR and REAL strong?

    I hope to attend future feminist Hullaballos, and I think this should be a very strong policy decision.

    We can’t trust transactivists at all in women’s spaces, anymore than women of color can trust white women in THEIR spaces! No white woman would ever violate this if she was a true radical feminist. We did have arguments when Jewish women wanted to call themselves “women of color” but I think this was eventually settled.

    Transactivists will not fight fair and they do not know they are still using male tactics against women born women. Nor do they seem to care. In fact, when I have brought up sexism with them, they look confused, as if they really don’t know what it is. They insist that BOTH men and women have it equally bad! They just don’t know! You’d think they would, but they don’t.

    A male tactic is asking questions about female sexuality with clear purient interest at the heart of it. I’ve personally had lesbians complain to me when transgender MTFs have lead lesbian discussion groups! A lot of lesbians who suffered rape and more, felt pretty freaked out by this, and yet it was fine and dandy for a “LGBT Center” to have this open door policy.

    A sad commentary is that MTF lesbians were almost outnumbering lesbians as volunteers to lead the lesbian groups in the first place.

    Make-up putting on, weird clothes and non-productive narcissistic behavior are all out there. It is male dominance by other means, and with transwomen it is ALL ABOUT THEM all the time. I’ve seen this again and again and again.

    I don’t think radical feminists are well armed in advance to know what the tactics are, and how to handle trouble in advance.

    We should challenge these invaders and colonizers — they will be bodily thrown out! Period. They can then call women names to demonstrate their mysogyny.

    Thanks to Heart for stepping out on this issue, and for protecting this space from the invaders. This is one conference “room” where someone really will enforce the rules to protect the rights of all women here. Porno mouths, weird sexual fettishists and pro-S & M people will not be allowed in the front door, and thank Goddess!

    What will it take for the radical feminist intellectuals, and the powerful supporters of women everywhere to get this.

    All women feel so energized here. We have our disagreements, but I feel at least they are honestly presented.
    I would hate to see women who have been raped by men have to put up with a new breed of “mental” rapists and women’s room make-up putter oners violate yet one other woman for the sake of the wolf’s in sheep’s clothing cause.

    Remember, it’s all about them all the time. It is not about their respect for women born women at all. I don’t think transpeople know what the hell they’re doing. They are not women and not men, they are actually a new type of person — and insulting women and boring our radical feminist conferences to death is a clear indicatator that no one knows how hormones injected into humans really affects people.

    I tend to be so weary of this entire patriarchal medical establishment in the first place. Just as Janice Raymond who is (once was) a medical ethics person at a university. Just ask Mary Daly who truly understands gynergy as a spiritual force of power for women. These women really understand all of this in depth, and I often wish they could share their insights here.

    We as women and as radical women need to have the space to understand how the tactics of patriarchy change with the times. A woman is running for president? Great, let’s us men run a black man. Give him $32,000,000 in one month, let’s bring out the Kennedys to support this man. Yeah, great idea!
    The Kennedy family has never been famous for its feminism, and very few Kennedy women actually break out of traditional roles. It’s the men who are accused of raping women, a Kennedy killed a woman and is still in the Senate… well you get the picture.

    Pay attention women to these changing tactics. We can prevail, but we have to be sharp, we have to control our spaces, and we can thank fundamentalism for really making Heart a true secret weapon of a radical feminist. She really knows patriarchy and all its evil manifestations. In fact, I’d say she knows it far better than I do, because I’m a complete outsider to straight women’s experience. I can observe the pain and suffering of my straight sisters, but I can’t know what makes life so hard for them. I’m too separtist, have been this way too long, and I don’t have faith in men at all. I just don’t, and thank the goddess I was free of sexual attraction to men!

    I know this is long, but the danger is so clear for me to see. If I didn’t see this and hear this personally, I wouldn’t have come to the understandings that I have here. I’m not falling for the name calling, I’m saying women deserve honor, respect and safety. No MTF knows what this is about really, and never will. MTFs can be people of good will, and can deserve decent treatment, but they don’t have male privilege earned right to access women. They should be denied this for the sake of women who were raped, battered and who barely escaped male tyrants alive! What about them?

    Posted by Satsuma | February 6, 2008, 10:22 pm
  40. Yes indeed, the transactivists are counting on “cowing” women with their male tactics yet again. When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn? To quote an old song.

    I’ve posted a couple of times to this thread but whoosh the comments were zapped by systems failure. Demons of patriarchy eating my words!! 🙂 😦

    Women will be cowed because they can’t be strong against the invasion of men and male immitators.

    Why do trans activists think they have a right to invade women only spaces? Michigan, feminist Hullaballo and lesbian discussion groups? Why are MTFs colonizing lesbians? That’s right colonizing?

    I don’t believe in conspiracies, but I swear to goddess, these tales of MTFs disrupting women’s spaces are just awful to read.

    And we’ll have radical feminists who will let the Trojan Horse in the gate! They’ll do it!

    We’ve been warned by Mary Daly now for well over 40 years, and still we women keep thinking it’s going to be different.

    If you attend a radical women’s conference, bet on having women who have been beated, raped and tortured by men to be in attendance. Bet on it! Who defends their rights after all their pain and suffering? Who cares about them? And why do we cow tow to transactivists who are assaulting women born women with male tyranny? Transwomen are trans, they are neither male nor female, nor do they have a clue about women’s lived and inner experiences.

    They often see women as some sort of gender fashion show to immitate, kind of like the way some gay men get all ga-ga over bridal stores or divas! They are simply responding to a male created sterotype of women. The racist equivilent would be for white people to paint their bodies black and claim to be black. We would all view that as absurd.

    What makes me so mad is men yet again pretending that they know anything at all about women. Their invasion of Michfest proves their bad intentions.

    Why would they pick that rarest of places — women only space to do this? Why would they show up at lesbian discussion groups and bring their porno mouths right in the door with them? Why would a MTF enter a wet T-shirt contest at a lesbian bar? I kid you not!! Why would a lesbian bar have this sort of contest to begin with? Yeowww…

    When will the psychological assault by born men end? And why do we put up with the lies of the transmovement vis-a-vis women.

    Either we are being attacked by a clever new infiltrator, or women still have a lot of trouble staking a claim to space itself.

    As Branjor said earlier, the feminists of the Mary Daly era had no problem with picking up a man and throwing him out. The women of today just suffer at feminist Hullaballo and let the men stay! And this as raped women, and women beated by men are yet again given the short shrift! We are cowards to our own cause if we don’t do something about these snakes in the grass or Trojan horses.

    Posted by Satsuma | February 6, 2008, 10:37 pm
  41. Wow, Heart you rescued my poor little posts! And here I thought my intellectual children had been captured by evil patriarchal demons! 🙂

    Posted by Satsuma | February 7, 2008, 12:26 am

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The Farm at Huge Creek, Michigan Womyn's Music Festival, The Feminist Hullaballoo